This morning in Egypt ...

[RedSeaDiver2]

Thank you for your insight and experience Ivy 202. It simply reinforces my intention to always book a main deck cabin and carry a smoke and CO alarm. On my most recent trip I never had reason to go below deck at all.
In terms of the frequency of these incidents, I think we can all agree that even one is too many. But we, as divers/passengers, can only control the controllables - and if we want to get to the best dive spots we probably have to accept there is risk (which is not to excuse the operators' failings in any way). If we take out a couple of years for COVID and assume the average boat does 40 weeks a year - then with say 100 liveaboards operating in the Red Sea and an average two of these serious incidents a year- then that makes 36 incidents in 72,000 weeks of liveaboard operation - or 0.05% chance of being on a boat that sinks or catches fire. I'm not making any comment as to whether that's an acceptable risk or not - each to their own.

175 liveaboards registered with the CDWS in the Egyptian Red Sea, probably 200 all up.

 

[RedSeaDiver2]

Since you are a captain, I wanted to know: is it sufficient to just have a manual systems and a fire alarm to stop most of fires? Or fires in such a vessel can get so quickly large that it wouldn’t be enough to make a significant difference?

If that’s an efficient way to protect the vessel, why aren’t the Red Sea vessels using them? Is the cost of running them more expensive than just taking the hit and insurance money when an accident happens?

Did they have a fire alarm on that vessel and did it get activated during the incident?

A manual extinguishing system is far easier to maintain and keep working, has far less parts and far less that can go wrong, and doesn't activate by accident or for no reason at all - I always prefer a simple reliable system that I know is going to work instead of a system that is going to give me headaches - and once it has accidentally activated it is useless until it can get replenished.

A simple manually activated CO2 system for the engine room isn't that expensive to install, however it does require boat owners to be aware that such a system is available before they can decide to install one. Egypt isn't like Germany, the UK or the US where there are trade shows for commercial vessels etc etc. and in Egypt companies that sell things don't really market through websites.

I don't know what was fitted to Hurricane, I haven't been onboard that one.

 

[RedSeaDiver2]

You also can’t use CO2 suppression systems in occupied spaces, it produces an atmosphere that is unbreathable. Effective fire detection and suppression systems on boats and ships are not easy or cheap.

Indeed - and you can't re-enter the space until it is ventilated, and it only works in enclosed spaces like engine rooms - for instance it wouldn't work in places like the salon where most of the recharging of lithium batteries takes place. There are no simple solutions, a fitted dry powder extinguishing system in the galley requires a massive cleanup after it is activated - allow a day or more without cooking facilities.

 

[RedSeaDiver2]

The problem is that keeps being used as an excuse to do nothing at all.

A human patrolling the boat is an extremely effective fire detection system and a button nearby he can push for an instant global alarm is an extremely effective alerting system. Now, suppression, sure, that can't be trimmed down to the basics so easily - but only the first 2 really need to happen to reduce deaths.

(I almost don't mind if more poorly maintained boats sink so long as the passengers are able to get out in time - at some point they may run out of crappy boats and have to build good ones....)

And the reason I've been focussing so much on the alerting system is that this most recent incident was not at night. Staff and passengers were in a briefing (presumably either in the salon or on the dive deck). How did we get from first detection of smoke or heat to not enough time to bang on some doors? I'm really hoping more of this story comes out to better understand this logical gap.

And I would also comment on using ships bell for alarm: The last boat I was on I had the cabin closest to the bell and even full out I could barely hear it if the engines were running. That is not a viable solution for 25m+ boats. It's 2023, we have the technology to cheaply and easily have an alarm in every single room.

A human on constant patrol isn't actually that effective on something the size of a large liveaboard - you can see how quickly the fire took hold on the Hurricane, it would take a person ten minutes to do a lap of the entire vessel through every deck, and if the fire started at a given location one minute after the person had passed that location then...

Smoke and thermal detection systems are far better but very expensive, and in conditions on a liveaboard they will frequently give false alarms - someone using a spray/aerosol can deodorant in a cabin would frequently set the smoke alarm off, and we all know often a smoke alarm in a kitchen at home goes off..., and even on land the fire brigades get called frequently to automatic fire alarms - and often they can't even determine what caused the alarm to activate.

If I was building a liveaboard then I would do a lot of research into fire detection/alarm systems and suppression systems before choosing something.

 

[Mike Walker]

A human on constant patrol isn't actually that effective on something the size of a large liveaboard

That human only has to cover the key points with high fire risk and high impact on egress - salon, charging, engine room and below deck passageway. On many boats that can be covered practically standing still from a 'is it on fire' standpoint. And that's only at night - my theoretical human sensor would be any staff or passenger during the day who has eyes, a nose and can push a button to trigger an alarm.

If you're boat is big enough that the above doesn't apply you can afford some cameras feeding to the bridge and a centralized alarm.

False triggers can be managed with a human intermediary. Sensor triggers bridge, bridge radios staff, staff checks. Hopefully the earlier detection of the sensor will offset the slight lag in having the human check.

(And I'm well aware of how to do these systems properly - my business interacts with them a fair bit in the context of buildings on land. But we've already established 'properly' isn't going to happen for many of these boats. Most of what I'm throwing out for consideration are similar to things I've seen implemented in one way or another on a boat somewhere or another. Time to get creative and not let perfect be the enemy of good enough. If you're building from scratch then, yes, the conversation changes a fair bit.)

 

[Jai Bar]

I constructed it from publicly available information, though not necessarily easy to find.

Many thanks for this- I have been diving in the Red Sea from early 90s, scores of liveaboard and yet, was aware only about half of your list.

These are the ones that resulted in loss of lives or sunk boat and got publicity for a few days. One can only guess how many "lesser" incidents go completely unreported.. Like the example I previously posted, a few months ago was on Safari when an explosion rocked the boat, followed by smoke from the engine room and the mechanic stepping into the dive deck bleeding from deep lacerations on arm and thigh. There were not any bandages to be found in the med kit other than some gauzes which are inadequate for bleeding, had to improvise applying pressure with towels.

The mechanic was evacuated to hospital.

Such an incident- we really don't know what happened at engine room and no one offered us any explanation- could have ended with more injuries or fire, but probably is one among a long unreported list.

 

[KevinNM]

That human only has to cover the key points with high fire risk and high impact on egress - salon, charging, engine room and below deck passageway. On many boats that can be covered practically standing still from a 'is it on fire' standpoint. And that's only at night - my theoretical human sensor would be any staff or passenger during the day who has eyes, a nose and can push a button to trigger an alarm.

I’ve seen videos of how fast a polyurethane foam fire can build, which is what I think was the primary initial fuel on the MV conception. The foam went from ignition to starting to set fire to the rest of the room in a minute 25 seconds. The smoke alarm went off at 17 seconds.

At the point the smoke alarm went off the fire is extinguishable, a fire extinguisher would put it out no problem. Two minutes later? Maybe you could fight it from outside the compartment with fire hoses. Maybe. You couldn’t enter the compartment without bunker gear and scbas and live, it’s full of superheated dense toxic black smoke.

So in ten minutes it can go from everything is fine to the entire boat is on fire stem to stern. Having people walking around is certainly a good idea, but I’m not at all sure it is enough.

 

[Rearviewmirror]

I also wonder what type of smoke alarms vessels are using - thought some folks might find this interesting - Smoke Alarms Are Not Created Equal

 

[Mike Walker]

I’ve seen videos of how fast a polyurethane foam fire can build, which is what I think was the primary initial fuel on the MV conception. The foam went from ignition to starting to set fire to the rest of the room in a minute 25 seconds. The smoke alarm went off at 17 seconds.

At the point the smoke alarm went off the fire is extinguishable, a fire extinguisher would put it out no problem. Two minutes later? Maybe you could fight it from outside the compartment with fire hoses. Maybe. You couldn’t enter the compartment without bunker gear and scbas and live, it’s full of superheated dense toxic black smoke.

So in ten minutes it can go from everything is fine to the entire boat is on fire stem to stern. Having people walking around is certainly a good idea, but I’m not at all sure it is enough.

None of what you list is contrary to my two core points:
1) Increase means of detection (by any means available, considering limited budgets)
2) Make sure that means of detection can get an alarm to every single area in the shortest possible time.
It won't get you to 100%, but it's a start and it is doable with minimal investment or complexity.

Now, to directly address the above - also achievable, simple actions:
- Get rid of all the highly flammable faux luxury crap on exit paths
- Make it clear the importance of exiting immediately upon alarm. 15 seconds to grab stuff then get out.
- Fire extinguisher per room. Include usage in boat briefing.
Again, not 100% but each thing can add to the time available to get everybody out.

Or, everyone can just keep plunging their heads in the sand coming up with every possible reason to avoid doing anything. There are obviously better ways than what is listed above, particularly at the design/construction stage (see upthread), but so far as immediate actionable change in a $ limited environment I stand by my suggestions.

I'm sure there's other clever, simple ideas out there others have seen as well. If you don't like my ideas, what practical solutions would you propose instead?

 

[scubadada]

Many of us have become much more safety conscious in the last several years. I do research ahead of time and check out all the features after I board. I try to include my findings in my trip reviews, to aid other divers in their decision. My review of a trip on the Belize Aggressor IV in April 2022 is a good example

Trip Report - Belize on the Aggressor IV April 9-16, 2022

Belize on the Aggressor IV April 9-16, 2022 Reservations: I reserved my spot ton the Belize Aggressor IV directly with Aggressor. I made my reservations during last fall’s sale and got 25% off. I made my airline reservations directly with American Airlines, a flight from Philadelphia to Miami...

scubaboard.com

The roving night watch deserves a comment. I have seen it work two ways, a rotating duty shared among crew members who work each day, or a dedicated individual. My bias is for a dedicated crew member who is well rested and whose responsibilities are solely that of night watch. As an early riser, I spoke with Sterlyn nearly every morning on my Belize trip. He was an energetic young man starting to work his way up the Aggressor employment ladder.

Another thing to emphasize is to have a ditch bag prepared in case you need to make a hasty exit. The small amount of time that may be available has been mentioned many times. I take a relatively compact dry bag and keep it at my bedside. I have a additional flashlight available and sleep in light shorts and a t-shirt that I could escape in. I'm hoping that none of these preparations are ever needed.