This morning in Egypt ...

[Brett Hatch]

Folks, this thread is in the Accidents and Incidents forum, please take a moment to look at the special rules for this forum. I am leaving this conversation of the last couple of pages regarding the definition of murder/manslaughter/etc in place for now. But, this is quite off-topic. If you would like to discuss this further, it really belongs in a different thread in a different forum.

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A ScubaBoard Staff Message...

This thread was previously locked for cleanup, and a few posts were deleted. From here on out, posts that violate the special A&I rules will be deleted without warning, and repeat offenders may be banned from A&I. The thread is now unlocked.

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[DandyDon]

Here is an organization that could spearhead reform: HEPCA

 

[rmorgan]

A short piece from Undercurrent today indicates that Hurricane was the first boat in what seems to be a well-regarded Red Sea fleet. “The steel-hulled vessel, which carried oxygen tanks to support CCR divers, has been a favorite with British divers for more than two decades.” So, not a late entrant, and doubtless well regarded—this must hit the British dive community especially hard.

I can’t understand why there wasn’t fixed and automatic fire suppression which would put out a worst-case engine-room fire, but electrical fires are terrible. Surely the alarms went off promptly; but there are plenty of survivors to say what happened. The engine-room equipment must be vapor, though.

This casualty, so far as is reported, doesn’t involve sleeping watchmen, batteries in cabins or vessels running aground. But a fire below decks could turn the companionway above the waterline into a chimney. Aren’t there robust fire suppression systems for small raft engine rooms? An hour earlier the dive briefing would not have been underway, and many people would have been asleep.

It‘s tempting to think of liveaboards as floating resorts rather than small ships, often operating in remote waters, upon the integrity and operation of which passengers heavily depend. The industry doesn’t do much to dispel that notion. Thanks to Scubaboard for providing and moderating this forum—there are things to be learned from every casualty, although this one feels like a horrible accident so far.

 

[Mike Walker]

A short piece from Undercurrent today indicates that Hurricane was the first boat in what seems to be a well-regarded Red Sea fleet. “The steel-hulled vessel, which carried oxygen tanks to support CCR divers, has been a favorite with British divers for more than two decades.” So, not a late entrant, and doubtless well regarded—this must hit the British dive community especially hard.

I can’t understand why there wasn’t fixed and automatic fire suppression which would put out a worst-case engine-room fire, but electrical fires are terrible. Surely the alarms went off promptly; but there are plenty of survivors to say what happened. The engine-room equipment must be vapor, though.

This casualty, so far as is reported, doesn’t involve sleeping watchmen, batteries in cabins or vessels running aground. But a fire below decks could turn the companionway above the waterline into a chimney. Aren’t there robust fire suppression systems for small raft engine rooms? An hour earlier the dive briefing would not have been underway, and many people would have been asleep.

It‘s tempting to think of liveaboards as floating resorts rather than small ships, often operating in remote waters, upon the integrity and operation of which passengers heavily depend. The industry doesn’t do much to dispel that notion. Thanks to Scubaboard for providing and moderating this forum—there are things to be learned from every casualty, although this one feels like a horrible accident so far.

Fire suppression... maybe. Working fire suppression.... maybe. Alarms... maybe. Smoke detectors.... probably, in the cabins, where they would react to late to be helpful. Batteries in smoke detectors... maybe.

Unfortunately even on the better boats in the RS you can't necessarily count on any of that. You can't even count on the boat you booked and researched being the one you're getting on when you arrive.
I've given up any illusion that this style of boat (mostly kindling) while on fire has any hope of a fire being put out.
My expectations were low but that video was far worse than I'd ever imagine for the degree and speed of spread.

I just want to know about the emergency ASAP and a clear path to the water from my bed.

But there are plenty of places where one can go on a vessel where the steel isn't just hull but goes all the way to the top, the alarms are working and centralized, the escape routes are multiple, the engine rooms have automated suppression, the salons aren't filled with accelerant, the boat overall is sprinklered... and the list goes on.

(And there are a couple RS operations that get pretty close to that standard)

The direct cause was almost certainly an 'accident' - just like Conception. But the setup has been decades in the making through a culture of operator/owner apathy, ineffective government oversight and customer wilful blindness to risk/reward calculations. Legal liability may be limited... but moral...?

Everyone at every step of the chain needs to do better. Not argue that 'it's just the way it is'.

 

[RedSeaDiver2]

Fire suppression... maybe. Working fire suppression.... maybe. Alarms... maybe. Smoke detectors.... probably, in the cabins, where they would react to late to be helpful. Batteries in smoke detectors... maybe.

Unfortunately even on the better boats in the RS you can't necessarily count on any of that. You can't even count on the boat you booked and researched being the one you're getting on when you arrive.
I've given up any illusion that this style of boat (mostly kindling) while on fire has any hope of a fire being put out.
My expectations were low but that video was far worse than I'd ever imagine for the degree and speed of spread.

I just want to know about the emergency ASAP and a clear path to the water from my bed.

But there are plenty of places where one can go on a vessel where the steel isn't just hull but goes all the way to the top, the alarms are working and centralized, the escape routes are multiple, the engine rooms have automated suppression, the salons aren't filled with accelerant, the boat overall is sprinklered... and the list goes on.

(And there are a couple RS operations that get pretty close to that standard)

The direct cause was almost certainly an 'accident' - just like Conception. But the setup has been decades in the making through a culture of operator/owner apathy, ineffective government oversight and customer wilful blindness to risk/reward calculations. Legal liability may be limited... but moral...?

Everyone at every step of the chain needs to do better. Not argue that 'it's just the way it is'.

I will preface this by saying that I am a qualified commercial captain, and that I have lived and worked in Egypt, and intend to retire there one day.

Fire suppression on ships is not something that is perfected yet - very modern superyachts are often destroyed by fires despite having the very best fire suppression systems available fitted - search for a youtube channel called esysman superyachts and scroll down through his videos and you will see a number of examples.

Automatic fire suppression systems either on land or on ships are high maintenance and have a bad habit of activating when there is no fire. The key to anything in Egypt is keep it simple - I'm sure that Berndo would agree with me on that - whether it is a fire suppression system or the design of a new dive centre. An engine room fire suppression system in Egypt would need to be a simple system that is manually activated - a decent number of cylinders of compressed CO2 plumbed into some piping that distributes it in the engine room would be my way of doing it.

One thing to remember though is that an engine room fire suppression system isn't mandated for that size vessel in many parts of the world - there would be Aggressor fleet vessels that don't have engine room fire suppression systems, and many other liveaboards around the world so I wouldn't go pointing fingers at the Red Sea liveaboards because they are no different to many others around the world. Does anyone really think that they are going to find an engine room fire suppression system on your typical phinisi liveaboard in Asia? I don't.

And before anyone in the U.S. points fingers at the Red Sea - remember stones, glasshouses - and the MV Conception.

 

[Joneill]

I will preface this by saying that I am a qualified commercial captain, and that I have lived and worked in Egypt, and intend to retire there one day.

Fire suppression on ships is not something that is perfected yet - very modern superyachts are often destroyed by fires despite having the very best fire suppression systems available fitted - search for a youtube channel called esysman superyachts and scroll down through his videos and you will see a number of examples.

Automatic fire suppression systems either on land or on ships are high maintenance and have a bad habit of activating when there is no fire. The key to anything in Egypt is keep it simple - I'm sure that Berndo would agree with me on that - whether it is a fire suppression system or the design of a new dive centre. An engine room fire suppression system in Egypt would need to be a simple system that is manually activated - a decent number of cylinders of compressed CO2 plumbed into some piping that distributes it in the engine room would be my way of doing it.

One thing to remember though is that an engine room fire suppression system isn't mandated for that size vessel in many parts of the world - there would be Aggressor fleet vessels that don't have engine room fire suppression systems, and many other liveaboards around the world so I wouldn't go pointing fingers at the Red Sea liveaboards because they are no different to many others around the world. Does anyone really think that they are going to find an engine room fire suppression system on your typical phinisi liveaboard in Asia? I don't.

And before anyone in the U.S. points fingers at the Red Sea - remember stones, glasshouses - and the MV Conception.

Hopefully, fingers are pointed at the entire liveaboard Industry to learn from these tragedies and take meaningful steps to prevent them.

 

[RedSeaDiver2]

So have you actually been to Egypt or have you been driven from the airport to the resort/live aboard in an air conditioned bus three times?


I never said they're stupid. I used to work in Egypt and I can tell you that most of the guys that work in the tourism industry are form towns in the middle of egypt where there hardly had any access to education or any opportunity and are happy to have any job that lets them and their family buy food. They do what they know and can to keep the business running.
I feel very sorry for the victims and their families but I feel much more sorry for the countless locals in Egypt that live and die under very bad conditions every day.
The money that is spend by rich foreiners like yourself doesn't go to the workers, it goes to some rich a-hole.

Unfortunately a lot of dive tourism money in Egypt never gets to Egypt - the owners are Europeans that have operations there - dive centres, resorts etc, and only send enough money there to pay operating costs, wages, etc.

As Berndo said - many of the Egyptian staff in the Red Sea liveaboards and resorts are from Upper Egypt (places like Qena) and they move away from their families to get a job in the tourism sector to help support their families - most only see their families once or twice a year. The typical wage is between US$100-150 per month, unfortunately inflation in Egypt is running at 30% at the moment, and the tourism sector has really suffered over the last few years due to COVID, the Ukraine war etc.

Change is always slow in Egypt, the liveaboards have come a long way since I first went there in the late 1980's, and are continuing to evolve. Eventually things like an engine room fire suppression system will get fitted to new liveaboards when they are built - it is just natural evolution - but evolution takes time.

The first thing you learn when living in Egypt is to slow down your expectations about how quickly things should happen - because nothing happens quickly in Egypt. The second thing you learn is not to try to compare something that you see in Egypt to how you would expect it in your first world western country.

 

[Mike Walker]

I will preface this by saying that I am a qualified commercial captain, and that I have lived and worked in Egypt, and intend to retire there one day.

Fire suppression on ships is not something that is perfected yet - very modern superyachts are often destroyed by fires despite having the very best fire suppression systems available fitted - search for a youtube channel called esysman superyachts and scroll down through his videos and you will see a number of examples.

Automatic fire suppression systems either on land or on ships are high maintenance and have a bad habit of activating when there is no fire. The key to anything in Egypt is keep it simple - I'm sure that Berndo would agree with me on that - whether it is a fire suppression system or the design of a new dive centre. An engine room fire suppression system in Egypt would need to be a simple system that is manually activated - a decent number of cylinders of compressed CO2 plumbed into some piping that distributes it in the engine room would be my way of doing it.

One thing to remember though is that an engine room fire suppression system isn't mandated for that size vessel in many parts of the world - there would be Aggressor fleet vessels that don't have engine room fire suppression systems, and many other liveaboards around the world so I wouldn't go pointing fingers at the Red Sea liveaboards because they are no different to many others around the world. Does anyone really think that they are going to find an engine room fire suppression system on your typical phinisi liveaboard in Asia? I don't.

And before anyone in the U.S. points fingers at the Red Sea - remember stones, glasshouses - and the MV Conception.

There's definitely an 'anything is better than nothing' factor here. I have no illusions that these systems will magically save ships (or work properly 100% or the time) - but some sort of suppression system and some form of alarm ASAP upon fire detection do seem to increase the odds that humans will make it to the deck/liferaft/water. It only takes 30 seconds to wake up, get bearings and get up top - adequate warning should be achievable.

Hopefully, fingers are pointed at the entire liveaboard Industry to learn from these tragedies and take meaningful steps to prevent them.

Yes - while some geographies are historically worse than others - there are good operators and bad operators everywhere. My above rants are directed at all 'substandard' operators, regardless of location.

 

[Mike Walker]

The first thing you learn when living in Egypt is to slow down your expectations about how quickly things should happen - because nothing happens quickly in Egypt. The second thing you learn is not to try to compare something that you see in Egypt to how you would expect it in your first world western country.

'Don't rock the boat' culture exists everywhere. I'll continue to call it out in Egypt just as much as I do everywhere in the world, including at home. Laziness, corruption, greed and apathy are killing people and it is not ok.

 

[BlueTrin]

Do you take a Smoke & CO Alarms on every overnight trip and test it before you sleep?

No but I am starting to think I should if I go on a liveaboard