The pros and cons of rebuilding your own regulators...

People who rebuild their own regs are...

  • candidates for the Darwin award.

    Votes: 18 11.8%
  • egotisitical and short sighted.

    Votes: 4 2.6%
  • dellusional about their own perceived skills.

    Votes: 7 4.6%
  • ill equiped to handle all of the contingencies.

    Votes: 8 5.2%
  • a little on the wild side.

    Votes: 9 5.9%
  • to be admired for their god-like knowledge.

    Votes: 3 2.0%
  • probably more conscientious about their equipment, and in tune to how it works.

    Votes: 105 68.6%
  • Froody dudes who really know where their towels are...

    Votes: 15 9.8%

  • Total voters
    153

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using a crescent wrench on a yoke nut, when the proper tool is available.

All to save what - either an hour of your time making one, or $15 buying one at Peterbilt?

Yep. The professionalism of dive shops shows its face once again.

Close ranks, join the crowd. Its all ok, even if our gear does get damaged due to them being cheap - or simply ignoring the specs.
 
Genesis once bubbled...
one of the potential "fixes" for improper maintenance is to simply replace any part that might be stressed.

Funny how that works.

As for you, Mike, why didn't YOU follow up with the ACTUAL DOCTOR at DAN that I talked to - by PHONE - if you disagreed with what he told me ON that phone call?

I posted within MINUTES of getting off the line, yet you maintain that we never had that conversation?

Sigh.

No wonder people don't trust dive shops.

You don't think its critical to follow specs? Fine with me. Don't follow them. You're not servicing MY gear and, IF someone has a problem as a result I bet your insurance is null and void since you didn't follow the procedures laid out in the specifications.

Read what I posted above I follow those specs and directions exactly just as I was trained. I never said you didn't talk to the guy at DAN. I said the entire thing was over phrasing. You said he said give them O2. I said he said don't stop there after an incedent. Which was said? I guess both. You used it as proof I was spreading nonsense when I repeated what I read and what they told me accurately with no changes. I don't make that stuff up either since I am not a doctor. I don't make this stuff up because I didn't design the device. You on the other hand take the words you choose and use them to make your own sentance and truth.

You are very talanted at putting your own slant on things. I FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURERS SPECS AND PROCEDURES TO THE LETTER.

I will no longer respond to anything Genesis says on this board or anyplace else.
 
I FOLLOW THE MANUFACTURERS SPECS AND DIRECTION TO THE LETTER.

No you don't.

You've already said that you don't use a torque wrench, and yet you have torque specs from manufacturers. You can't follow a torque spec without using a torque WRENCH!

As for DAN, it wasn't about an "incident". Again you mischaracterize. Again! Why Mike?

As you're well aware, that discussion was about an ASYMPTOMATIC individual who comes to the surface, having blown their profile in some way, but has no symptoms or signs of DCS. A number of people claimed that DAN said "don't let them have O2 until and unless they DEVELOP symptoms."

I challenged that, and went through their front-line person (who, incidentally, told me the same thing!) to the SOURCE of the information. After busting his chops for about 20 minutes, he conceded that (1) there is no difference between breathing O2 on the boat as a "silent" decompression stop and breathing it on the boat because you think you're at elevated risk of a hit, (2) that the O2 won't hurt you if you do breathe it, and (3), and most importantly, it might prevent you from taking a hit you would otherwise suffer IF YOU WAITED FOR THE ONSET OF SYMPTOMS!

THAT was the point of the debate - whether to WITHHOLD Oxygen "until symptoms appear". The answer, after getting through to a REAL doctor (and not just someone answering the phone over there) was NO.

This is just like the wonderful dive shop folks (two different shops thus far) who want to teach me how to dive in a drysuit. Nice idea, eh? Cool. I'd like to take that training. Except they want to teach me to use the drysuit as my ONLY buoyancy control device, eschewing my wing except in emergencies, if I have a drysuit on.

Even without actually diving in one I can determine with a bit of thought that this is somewhere between foolish and idiotic. Besides the obvious - a drysuit is not designed to hold pressure, in fact has seals that can "burp" at "high points" in typical diving postures (losing its air and thus buoyancy), it has a relief valve that is DESIGNED to be calibrated to release air at various pressures (making it even more dubious as a buoyancy device), air will redistribute itself in the suit over a MUCH larger area than in your BC (playing hell with your trim), and worse, if you invert there is no way to dump air from it in that posture AT ALL, there is the fact that the drysuit's purpose is exposure protection - not buoyancy control. My BC is designed for buoyancy control, not my drysuit! The obvious correct way (to me anyway) to use a drysuit is to add just enough air to it to maintain the loft of your undergarmets as you decend, vent any expanding air exceeding that as you ascend, and use the BC for its intended purpose - buoyancy control. This almost completely avoids the issue of "air bubbles" in the suit, makes you less of a balloon underwater (e.g. less drag), avoids the risk of having your buoyancy dramatically change without warning due to a suit "burp" and probably helps your trim tremendously, never mind avoiding the "floatie feet" problems some people have.

Now why in the Sam Hell would I take "instruction" in something from someone who wants to teach ne a thing that every rational thought process that I have says is just plain flat wrong? Oh, when challenged all they can mutter about why do it their way is "task loading". If I can handle a speargun and light underwater while managing my buoyancy I think I can handle a drysuit.

I think I'll spend a few hours in the pool figuring it out for myself, thank you very little - and save the $150.

You want to ignore me? Fine. I'll continue to point out the inconsistency in points I see made, whether by you or someone else.

Its all part of the same piece, and all part of where the mistrust of the "information" and "service" that dive shops hand out. My BS detector rings way too darn loud around some of these folks....
 
Genesis once bubbled...


No you don't.

You've already said that you don't use a torque wrench, and yet you have torque specs from manufacturers. You can't follow a torque spec without using a torque WRENCH!

As for DAN, it wasn't about an "incident". Again you mischaracterize. Again! Why Mike?

As you're well aware, that discussion was about an ASYMPTOMATIC individual who comes to the surface, having blown their profile in some way, but has no symptoms or signs of DCS. A number of people claimed that DAN said "don't let them have O2 until and unless they DEVELOP symptoms."

I challenged that, and went through their front-line person (who, incidentally, told me the same thing!) to the SOURCE of the information. After busting his chops for about 20 minutes, he conceded that (1) there is no difference between breathing O2 on the boat as a "silent" decompression stop and breathing it on the boat because you think you're at elevated risk of a hit, (2) that the O2 won't hurt you if you do breathe it, and (3), and most importantly, it might prevent you from taking a hit you would otherwise suffer IF YOU WAITED FOR THE ONSET OF SYMPTOMS!

THAT was the point of the debate - whether to WITHHOLD Oxygen "until symptoms appear". The answer, after getting through to a REAL doctor (and not just someone answering the phone over there) was NO.

You want to ignore me? Fine. I'll continue to point out the inconsistency in points I see made, whether by you or someone else.

Funny the book suggests that I do use the propper tool. How do you place port plugs? With a torque wrench?
I have never damaged anyones equipment. How dare you suggest that I have? If I ever broke a part I would never charge someone for it.

I talked to DAN and I have no reason to lie about what they told me or what they wrote.

Now there I go responding when I said I wouldn't. I'll do better I promis.
 
To all you unsuspecting folk reading all this dribble.

There is a torque spec for every threaded part in a regulator (probably in the world). The tools called out by the same people who wrote the torque spec do not measure torque. There are torque specs for hoses, port plugs and you name it. We use allen wrenches. Experienced divers keep reg hoses hand tight.

For some reason some would like to take these simple truths and use them to make me and I guess all other shop owners? out to be incompetant liars with some kind of hidden motive.

If the manufacturer of anyone with credibility showed that I needed a torque wrench or any other tool. I'd get what I needed and extra just in case. Don't believe me. You can walk into my shop and see the way I do things. I will show the books to document the thousands of hours and dollars I have invested in training and tools to do things right. There is no payback but that is what we have done and I can prove it. On the other hand Genesis can show what? Some bootleg/grey market manuals with no training to enable him to understand it. And yet he will attempt to discredit someone for what reason?

If this was 1850 I would challange Genesis to a dual.
 
Genesis once bubbled...


No you don't.

You've already said that you don't use a torque wrench, and yet you have torque specs from manufacturers. You can't follow a torque spec without using a torque WRENCH!

As for DAN, it wasn't about an "incident". Again you mischaracterize. Again! Why Mike?

As you're well aware, that discussion was about an ASYMPTOMATIC individual who comes to the surface, having blown their profile in some way, but has no symptoms or signs of DCS. A number of people claimed that DAN said "don't let them have O2 until and unless they DEVELOP symptoms."

I challenged that, and went through their front-line person (who, incidentally, told me the same thing!) to the SOURCE of the information. After busting his chops for about 20 minutes, he conceded that (1) there is no difference between breathing O2 on the boat as a "silent" decompression stop and breathing it on the boat because you think you're at elevated risk of a hit, (2) that the O2 won't hurt you if you do breathe it, and (3), and most importantly, it might prevent you from taking a hit you would otherwise suffer IF YOU WAITED FOR THE ONSET OF SYMPTOMS!

THAT was the point of the debate - whether to WITHHOLD Oxygen "until symptoms appear". The answer, after getting through to a REAL doctor (and not just someone answering the phone over there) was NO.

This is just like the wonderful dive shop folks (two different shops thus far) who want to teach me how to dive in a drysuit. Nice idea, eh? Cool. I'd like to take that training. Except they want to teach me to use the drysuit as my ONLY buoyancy control device, eschewing my wing except in emergencies, if I have a drysuit on.

Even without actually diving in one I can determine with a bit of thought that this is somewhere between foolish and idiotic. Besides the obvious - a drysuit is not designed to hold pressure, in fact has seals that can "burp" at "high points" in typical diving postures (losing its air and thus buoyancy), it has a relief valve that is DESIGNED to be calibrated to release air at various pressures (making it even more dubious as a buoyancy device), air will redistribute itself in the suit over a MUCH larger area than in your BC (playing hell with your trim), and worse, if you invert there is no way to dump air from it in that posture AT ALL, there is the fact that the drysuit's purpose is exposure protection - not buoyancy control. My BC is designed for buoyancy control, not my drysuit! The obvious correct way (to me anyway) to use a drysuit is to add just enough air to it to maintain the loft of your undergarmets as you decend, vent any expanding air exceeding that as you ascend, and use the BC for its intended purpose - buoyancy control. This almost completely avoids the issue of "air bubbles" in the suit, makes you less of a balloon underwater (e.g. less drag), avoids the risk of having your buoyancy dramatically change without warning due to a suit "burp" and probably helps your trim tremendously, never mind avoiding the "floatie feet" problems some people have.

Now why in the Sam Hell would I take "instruction" in something from someone who wants to teach ne a thing that every rational thought process that I have says is just plain flat wrong? Oh, when challenged all they can mutter about why do it their way is "task loading". If I can handle a speargun and light underwater while managing my buoyancy I think I can handle a drysuit.

I think I'll spend a few hours in the pool figuring it out for myself, thank you very little - and save the $150.

You want to ignore me? Fine. I'll continue to point out the inconsistency in points I see made, whether by you or someone else.

Its all part of the same piece, and all part of where the mistrust of the "information" and "service" that dive shops hand out. My BS detector rings way too darn loud around some of these folks....

You got me so mad before I didn't even see the stuff about the dry suit. Do a search on the board. I hesitate to say much lest you accuse me of trying to kill you with a conspiracy to get you to use your drysuit for bc. There are reasons and solutions to all the questions and concerns you brought up about using the dry suit and a good instructor could make it all clear to you. What I will say is that most if not all agencies recommend a dry suit be used that way in a recreational context and most (at least some I didn't count) drysuit manufacturers agree. There is some flaw to their logic but it lies generally outside the realm of recreational diving (or what most folks call recreational diving).

You are all hung up on stuff that don't matter. After the class use the bc if you want. Let the suit squeeze you who cares. Or...put a little air in the suit to kill the squeeze and then put air in the bc. oooops now your neutral better skip putting air in the bc. Anyway the important stuff is in detailes like emergency management. You don't need help to dive the suit. You need help to practice the important stuff. Hmmm...better get help who has had practice helping with such things. Those people are called instructors. They teach bc with the dry suit because that's what the agency demands. It isn't a plot they really think it's best for you. And for most recreational diving it works real well too.

Now an instructor like me who teaches the use of heavier equipment like doubles will also teaches the other methods (the ones I can't officially teach in a dry suit class). We didn't write the book we just use it and for many it works real well.
 
They teach bc with the dry suit because that's what the agency demands. It isn't a plot they really think it's best for you. And for most recreational diving it works real well too.

Now an instructor like me who teaches the use of heavier equipment like doubles will also teaches the other methods (the ones I can't officially teach in a dry suit class). We didn't write the book we just use it and for many it works real well.

Paraphrased:

"I know its not really the right way to do it, but its what an agency demands so its what I teach."

Why is it that if something's not the right way to go about that thing, people do it "wrong" anyway? What's that about? While I have gripes with the religious aspects of GUE's training, nobody can argue with them about not adopting something just 'cause it makes life easier for an instructor! Isn't this, when you boil it all down, the entire issue that JJ and GI3 have with the "recreational" agencies?

The only reason we don't have people dropping like flies from all this nonsense is that diving is really a quite safe activity - in fact, you're more likely to be hurt BOWLING than you are DIVING, and (if you look at the statistics) 4 times more likely to die driving to the dive boat than you are while actually diving itself.

Of course the SECOND order problem is that this actual safety of the activity makes all the arguments that the dive shops throw up about how you need to do this and that - play the game their way, let them service your kit, be circumspect, etc - nothing more than driven by pure financial interest - THEIRS!

And here I thought you weren't going to respond to me any more. Quite a nice debate 'ya got going here with me on this, don't 'cha think?
 
poseidon part #3771 -is a torque wrench
Apeks DST first stage manual required items#10 0-120 inch pounds torque wrench ,#11 10-50 foot pounds torque wrench
joens
 
you don't want to confuse people with FACTS, do 'ya? :)

Bald (and apparently incorrect!) assertions from LDS owners are much, much more useful, don't 'ya think?
 
Genesis,
I am sorry. I can't help you. I don't think any one can. You missed my entire point because you chose to. All the agencies and the dry suit manufacturers are not wrong they just limit the scope of the class. What I tried to explain is the context of that scope. For many divers their system works great. For other divers with different equipment it isn't enough and for other it's plain wrong. Follow me now

You start out neutral at the surface. Yes?
As you decend the presure increases. Yes?
To control the suit squeeze you add air. Yes?
If you were nearly neutral at the surface (and not squeezed) and you add air as you descend to maintain this condition you are still neutral. Yes? No need to add air to the bc. No?

Since you are slightly neg in the beginning of a dive you have slightly more than needed. At the end of the dive things will be getting pretty tight in that suit.

A slightly simplified version of life with a dry suit. Think your prowis means you can handle this plus a bc. I would like to see.

You have never dived a dry suit let alone tought it yet you are ready to tell the world how wrond everyone but you is. Go figure.
 
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