The Grand Traverse in Peacock Springs.

[Cave Diver]

Can this dive be done as separate dives by recalculating thirds or taking a surface interval in between? Yes.

BUT, Pete, I would like you to consider some of the comments that have been made and your position in the dive community. Just because you might be capable of doing the dive and making it fall within standards by changing some of the parameters doesn't mean another Cave I student reading along can. My opinion is that people who are prominent figures in the dive community, as well as in our little online community have a responsibility to encourage safe practices not only by word, but by deed.

After reading some of the latest comments, I don't think they're intended to bash you or make a big deal out of it. Rather they have a genuine concern for the application of safe diving practices in caves. Tweaking standards is a deceptively easy way to die, even in "benign caves."

 

[ucfdiver]

Fact is, those of us who are local, dive often, are well known, moderators of a forum, or anything else that can be taken as a position of "know how" by other individuals are looked up to in some way, even if only to create an excuse to break rules.

I stage dove a ton at the Apprentice level, because some before me had. My instructor wasn't terribly concerned because I was doing it with c2/full cave students who had experience. The issue becomes, when James breaks the rules, John Doe comes down for vacation and assumes it's OK to break rules, too. This issue was brought to my attention, and to be honest if I learned nothing in full cave, it was worth every penny because I'm no longer breaking rules and having people see me do it.

Who thinks the Peacock lady would have been doing blind circuits had everyone always insisted on running reels? Who thinks Bruce would be alive today if he hadn't done visual jumps in Ginnie? Who thinks Fyvie would be alive if everyone hadn't rushed to rebreathers so soon? Who thinks Joe would be alive had the more experienced Yessic not taken him above his training level?

 

[The Chairman]

BUT, Pete, I would like you to consider some of the comments that have been made and your position in the dive community.

Thanks for ASSUMING that I haven't. Thanks for not asking what I am planning on doing. Thanks for making any concerns quite public.

After reading some of the latest comments, I don't think they're intended to bash you or make a big deal out of it.

Dang John, I see them as a mixture of a lot of things. I am sure that I would offend some nice people if I were to speak my mind freely. You can be sure that I won't treat others like I was treated.

Consequently, y'all can continue discussing this without me. I don't think you really give a rat's patootie what I do anyway. I am outie. However, you can be SURE that I won't be publicly asking for a cave buddy on ScubaBoard anytime soon. Too much drama. In fact, I'll just stop discussing any of my personal cave diving plans here. I have always wondered why there aren't that many cave dives planned here on ScubaBoard but y'all have cleared that right up. No one wants the Cave Inquisition, and I certainly did not expect it. For once, I am ashamed of ScubaBoard and how others are treated. Crikey!

On a brighter note, thanks to the TWO (and only two) who really did care and contacted me via PM with their concerns and suggestions. You can be sure that we'll be hooking up in the not-to-distant future.

If there are any comments directed towards me, be sure to PM them to me. This thread is not useful to me one whit.

 

[Dive-aholic]

So why is everybody upset about it?

I don't know about anyone else, but my concern isn't Pete's ability to do this dive. I think he could probably do it very safely. I'll even do the dive with him if we can coordinate schedules. And there would be no question regarding standards since I can take him a level above his current certification under standards.

I don't know if this dive violates NAUI standards. My concern is the people who are coming on here and offering explanations on how to do this dive and seemingly not violate standards. Others may come through and read this and start rationalizing dives they're doing that surpass their training. Riding that fine line in a public forum is the issue.

 

[Cave Diver]

Thanks for ASSUMING that I haven't.

I haven't assumed anything. I was just responding to your comment about people making a big deal out of things.

I am sure that I would offend some nice people if I were to speak my mind freely. You can be sure that I won't treat others like I was treated.

In fairness, I haven't been online much and I haven't read back through the entire thread to see what all of the previous comments were. The ones I did read seemed to express a genuine concern and I simply offered a different perspective on it.

If that offends you, I apologize because that was not my intent but I stand by my statement.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Netmage, thanks for posting the training limits.

Is there in the book a definition of "navigational decision" and "traverse" ? The book clearly lays out how many navigational decisions can be made, but does not make it clear what a navigational decision is. (or does it? I don't have the book, I don't have a copy of their training standards, and I can't find it on their website. I don't recall seeing a definition in my NACD text either, but I don't have it in front of me to check. This could all be a moot point, and I'd love for that to be the case so we can rest this discussion once and for all)

I know some people have told me that closing a gap is a navigational decision in their opinion. I think I've even had someone argue that perhaps every arrow you pass or cookie you drop should be considered a navigational decision.

Maybe it comes from my debating background, but I remember when writing up mock legislation for mock congress sessions, having a short half page bill and two to three pages of definitions, where almost literally every word in the bill was defined so I could argue the bill better and keep people from finding a flaw in it. I think there is something to be said for the need for clear definitions in training standards.



I also agree with those who have said that those members of the community who are role models need to be especially careful what they say and do. I don't post nearly as often now that I am a moderator, and I try to be careful not to be rude. As a full cave diver and divemaster, and moderator, and having worked in two dive shops, I try to be careful what I say about my dives, and how I dive when I dive with other people. When I do things that aren't perfectly kosher, I try to stay mum about it to avoid being a bad example, because I know that things I can do safely, others with the same certification level, might not be able to.

So Netdoc, I would advise you not to do this dive. I would advise you to get more cave dives under your belt, and move on to cave 2 or full cave, and I'd take it from a different instructor than cave 1. I stuck with the same instructor, and he's a great guy, but sometimes I do think I should have switched just to get more critique and finesse. Then, maybe you can do the grand traverse in class, or afterwards, without anyone being able to cast a stone. I'd love to do the dive with you. UCFDiver, you should join us with your fancy camera rig!

 

[netmage]

Page 46...
"The use of a line arrow is the indicator of a navigational decision. note: never use existing arrows, which you did not place, as a navigational decision!"

A traverse is not defined in the text, as returning to the original entrance during exit is included in the definition for simple navigation.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

According to page 46 of the NAUI Cave 1 Manual from 2005,

"Simple navigation: this level of training is limited to two navigational decisions during a dive, and returning to the same entrance location during the exit. The use of a line arrow is the indicator of a navigational decision."

So, you cannot do the Grand Traverse. You must do the Grand Travers and Grand Reverse. That dive requires huge tanks, the sac rate of a fish, stage bottles, or a rebreather.

However, you can apparently make as many jumps as you wish as long as you use cookies to mark the exit, not line arrows. (please realize, I'm just poking fun at a poorly worded textbook. The spirit of the law says using cookies or arrows, either way a jump is a navigational decision, even though the letter of the law is too narrowly written. To do what I suggested, you'd have to use cookies, and the NAUI book is clear you must tie into an arrow when leaving a line, not a cookie, so in that manner they do prevent someone from reading it loosely. They actually lead the diver through all of the different scenarios, and tell them where to place the arrow and why.)

Twice, the book seems to suggest that the safety bottle is not just a training standard, but should be left in the cavern zone on every dive. Page 9 and page 69. Stages are not allowed.

 

[TSandM]

Although it isn't defined, it's always seemed clear to me that a navigational decision is where you have to make a choice, and can go a wrong way. Therefore a T, or a jump is a navigational decision. A gap isn't, because there are no choices. You leave your entry line and proceed to the next line. When you come back, you follow your line. No "Which way?" questions involved. GUE has decided that simple gaps are acceptable at Cave 1 for this reason.

 

[Wormil]

I find this thread amusing.

It seems to me, that there's juggling of rules, and conflict in how they work, and what they are designed to do. At the risk of offending people, it looks like a chance to beat on pete(tm) (can I get a prize for that awesome rhyme). While I'm pro trolling, I'm anti pete beating, he's not rodney, ok?

How many people who are posting rules never bent them or broke them? Did a dive on 1/3s instead of 1/6? Did a circuit, a traverse, a siphon, blah, when not supposed to do it? Very few. If it was a discussion on the rule, awesome, if it's a beat pete thing, no. BOOM. No.

I think there are far worse things going on that a guy doing the grand traverse, like cert cards for full cave going to people who shouldn't have them and other fine things.

Let a man dive. Don't judge. Do some awesome dives. Yay.