The Grand Traverse in Peacock Springs.

[ucfdiver]

I find this thread amusing.

It seems to me, that there's juggling of rules, and conflict in how they work, and what they are designed to do. At the risk of offending people, it looks like a chance to beat on pete(tm) (can I get a prize for that awesome rhyme). While I'm pro trolling, I'm anti pete beating, he's not rodney, ok?

How many people who are posting rules never bent them or broke them? Did a dive on 1/3s instead of 1/6? Did a circuit, a traverse, a siphon, blah, when not supposed to do it? Very few. If it was a discussion on the rule, awesome, if it's a beat pete thing, no. BOOM. No.

I think there are far worse things going on that a guy doing the grand traverse, like cert cards for full cave going to people who shouldn't have them and other fine things.

Let a man dive. Don't judge. Do some awesome dives. Yay.

Your opinion might be different after you've been cave certified for more than a month. I said earlier I've broke rules, but so did a lot of other people who didn't live. Wait until someone you know dies breaking a rule... it gives it perspective, ymmv

 

[Wormil]

Your opinion might be different after you've been cave certified for more than a month. I said earlier I've broke rules, but so did a lot of other people who didn't live. Wait until someone you know dies breaking a rule... it gives it perspective, ymmv

I've watched people I know and love die without breaking rules. What's your point here? That part is useless.

I dive with advanced people, who have suggested elaborate plans and questioned technicalities in the rules to get the dives done. I didn't do the dives I wasn't comfortable with or felt were bending my rules. I dive "If you aren't comfortable doing the dive, don't do the dive even if it falls in the rules".

Good try at pushing superior cave diving buddy die as your fallacy.

 

[Wormil]

The next post by JahJah is teh gospelz....wait for it.

w00 w00!

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I think there are people here beating on Pete when he hasn't done anything wrong yet.

I do think that you have a better perspective on cave diving rule breaking the longer you've done this.

I agree very much that certification does not necessarily equal ability, and there is always a chance that Pete has the ability to do this dive.

However, it is important to keep in mind the view that we give the outside world. We should be a little careful to present a good view of our sport to the world, imho. That's why I stay pretty quiet about rules I bend, if I bend rules which of course I won't admit to

I do have a big problem with some rules being broken, but others I see as much more flexible depending on ability. I think it's very important to not suggest people break rules because there are a lot of divers out there that truly suck at diving, they are absolutely, scarily terrible, and they don't always realize this.

As always, I suggest we settle the debate once and for all by catheter size

 

[TSandM]

I broke NO rules during my tenure at Intro. I bent ONE, which was that we ran our own primary line to jump lines (rather than do the jump) and did some side passages that way. I have never broken gas limits. I honestly believed, and still do, that the rules are there for a reason, and that people with more experience than I had set things up so that I could gain experience and facility in the caves with a reasonable degree of safety. In the beginning, I did everything by the rules; it wasn't until I had a lot of dives in the systems that I began to "bend" the one rule.

 

[JahJahwarrior]

I think a big difference is the rules of accident analysis vs. the certification limits. How many divers died because of a stage carried with a full cave card, or a DPV used with a full cave card but without a DPV card? How many divers died because they exited the water at somewhere they didn't enter at the Cave 1 level? How many cave divers died because they used a stage at the Cave 1 level? How many cave divers died because they used trimix without a trimix card? Did deco without a deco card?


That said, I think statistics show that most divers dying nowadays die because they exceed training preparation.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I broke NO rules during my tenure at Intro. I bent ONE, which was that we ran our own primary line to jump lines (rather than do the jump) and did some side passages that way.

What rule does that break?

 

[TSandM]

It doesn't break any. It bends the "no jumps" rule, because the reason for it is not just to avoid navigational decisions, but to keep you in the main line passages, which are larger and harder to silt out, and where the permanent lines are well-maintained.

 

[ucfdiver]

What rule does that break?

FWIW I think the no jump rule isn't 100% about navigational decisions and has something to do with keeping divers out of more dangerous passages. I agree with Lynne, this is stretching and/or breaking the rule.

Clearly she thought so too, as she's since done the right thing and taken full cave

 

[Dive-aholic]

It doesn't break any. It bends the "no jumps" rule, because the reason for it is not just to avoid navigational decisions, but to keep you in the main line passages, which are larger and harder to silt out, and where the permanent lines are well-maintained.

This isn't the case in all caves. Many side passages are just as big, if not bigger, than the main passage, even in Mexico. And the lines are no differently maintained in those passages than in any other, at least for most passages within 400' of OW.