The Grand Traverse in Peacock Springs.

[Dive-aholic]

FWIW I think the no jump rule isn't 100% about navigational decisions and has something to do with keeping divers out of more dangerous passages. I agree with Lynne, this is stretching and/or breaking the rule.

Clearly she thought so too, as she's since done the right thing and taken full cave

So the jump at the park bench in Devil's is more dangerous?? Some areas of that passage are larger than the gold line passage. And you can get to it with a 400' primary reel.

 

[TSandM]

Rob, I'm not going to work very hard to defend my instructor's feeling that running a reel to a jump line was a bad move. In fact, they looked very much the other way over some other times we did this, but those jump lines were very close to the start of the mainline, sometimes no further at all from the entrance. The particular dive where Danny got upset is paralleling the mainline a little way, then the first jump a little way, and then tying into a second jump line. It's a beautiful passage; I suspect they just want to keep relatively novice divers out of it Honestly, I thought it was just great line-running practice. But Peter thinks paralleling the existing lines (at what I think are safe distances of at least six feet away) puts other teams on the permanent lines at risk.

 

[Dive-aholic]

If the novice divers have the appropriate buoyancy control, then there shouldn't be an issue. Most of the cave dives I've done in Mexico were in caves with no gold line, so I don't see a difference in lines. In fact, I'm not even sure I could tell you what passages were supposed to be the main passage versus a side passage, especially in the systems with several cenotes!

As for running a line parallel to another line, does that mean if another team has already run a reel into a system, I should wait for that team to exit because I might put them at risk by running my line in next to theirs?

 

[ucfdiver]

So the jump at the park bench in Devil's is more dangerous?? Some areas of that passage are larger than the gold line passage. And you can get to it with a 400' primary reel.

You can get to Harry's Crack, too.

 

[Dive-aholic]

You can get to Harry's Crack, too.

True, as well as some passages up in my area that aren't suitable for entry level divers. That's why I said many and not all. My point it's a navigation rule, not a passage rule.

 

[ucfdiver]

True, as well as some passages up in my area that aren't suitable for entry level divers. That's why I said many and not all. My point it's a navigation rule, not a passage rule.

Yet if you follow the rule, typically the dangerous passages aren't an issue, which was my original point.

 

[karstdvr]

I think there are people here beating on Pete when he hasn't done anything wrong yet.

Pete brought up a question that has sparked a philosphical discussion,and obviously he is upset,which I am sorry,but this is something that deserves discussion for people considering the same things.

What I have an issue with is using circumnavigation of rules outside safety levels to complete a goal oriented dive.

For example you said,"If you want to see daylight at Orange Grove you'll have to lose your buddy and search ". Suggesting separation of a buddy team to accomplish a goal?

Then,"To keep it safe, you'll have to turn at the end of the line at Orange Grove. I call this the "Grand Traverse and Grand Reverse". Okay now we will probably enter decompression which is outside this level.

"I prefer to do the GTGR as a double stage, because as we all know, thirds is wildly un-conservative in a low/no flow cave, even though I could do it as a single stage and perhaps on a really good day, backgas only. " Now we are saying to do this dive,and stay safe you will need a stage,since 1/3rds is wildly unconserative. Isn't stage diving outside this level,and add the task loading of 2 stages-sounds like the P3 accident waiting to happen.

However, it is important to keep in mind the view that we give the outside world. We should be a little careful to present a good view of our sport to the world, imho. That's why I stay pretty quiet about rules I bend, if I bend rules which of course I won't admit to

This statement is catch-22. I stay quiet about the rules I bend,which says I bend rules,but we need to present a good view of our sport.

I do have a big problem with some rules being broken, but others I see as much more flexible depending on ability. I think it's very important to not suggest people break rules because there are a lot of divers out there that truly suck at diving, they are absolutely, scarily terrible, and they don't always realize this.

What defines suck at diving? If I use this logic,if I don't suck at diving,then it is okay to break rules. Can I see the Suck Diving manual so we can define these people.

 

[Wormil]

What defines suck at diving? If I use this logic,if I don't suck at diving,then it is okay to break rules. Can I see the Suck Diving manual so we can define these people.

I know a ton of people who suck while diving....

 

[JahJahwarrior]

For example you said,"If you want to see daylight at Orange Grove you'll have to lose your buddy and search ". Suggesting separation of a buddy team to accomplish a goal?
It was a tongue in cheek way of showing that sometimes you can follow the letter of the law while violating the spirit of the law. Of course I'd never suggest anyone actually do something like this. I probably should try harder to show that I'm speaking tongue in cheek, because I can see how someone could get confused.

Then,"To keep it safe, you'll have to turn at the end of the line at Orange Grove. I call this the "Grand Traverse and Grand Reverse". Okay now we will probably enter decompression which is outside this level. Divers would need to plan whether they would enter decompression. I think it can be done without hitting deco, but that's just me.

"I prefer to do the GTGR as a double stage, because as we all know, thirds is wildly un-conservative in a low/no flow cave, even though I could do it as a single stage and perhaps on a really good day, backgas only. " Now we are saying to do this dive,and stay safe you will need a stage,since 1/3rds is wildly unconserative. Isn't stage diving outside this level,and add the task loading of 2 stages-sounds like the P3 accident waiting to happen. I've said several times I believe that stage diving is outside of this level and therefore the dive is not possible.




This statement is catch-22. I stay quiet about the rules I bend,which says I bend rules,but we need to present a good view of our sport. shhhh!



What defines suck at diving? If I use this logic,if I don't suck at diving,then it is okay to break rules. Can I see the Suck Diving manual so we can define these people.
It's hard to define, but you know it when you see it If you don't suck, then it might be possible to break rules while staying safe. You can't tell me that you have to have a stage diving card to be a safe stage diver. Technically, are you breaking your certification limits at the full cave level by taking a stage? But do you really need further training to do simple addition and use a few motor skills you should already possess from clipping off your SPG and 2nd stage? But, some people suck at diving and shouldn't do that.

Good thoughts, I responded in red.

 

[DeepSeaExplorer]

I'm not a rule follower myself. I've broken them all, and sometimes more than one on the same dive. With that in mind, I still have problems with this. While the Grand Traverse is not a complicated dive, and it's 'just gaps' as has been stated, it's three gaps in series in almost a mile of cave with many, many side tunnels and lots of silt. By the time you recalculate for your 'third dive', you would have less starting gas volume than I think is wise for a beginning cave diver. Normally, a full cave diver would have many dives in P1 and Orange Grove and have done the Peanut and crossover circuits, etc. many times before attempting this dive. If you short circuit the learning process and jump strait to the full monty without knowing the cave, the risk increases. What happens if you get separated and lost? Will you recognize where you are just by looking at the passages? Oh that's right, you're confused because you've haven't invested the time to learn your way around.

I do the GT in about 90 minutes, start to finish, using about 1,000 PSI in 104s. If something goes wrong half way, you could have up to a 45 minute swim to get out. That's not a little dive!

SL 27, I have a buddy that's a great diver and he always wants me to take him on dives beyond his training. I won't. You have to be the adult and say no. Were you not just posting on cave diver forum that you follow all five rules?! While this isn't specifically one of them, what's the point of you following the rules if your buddy is not?