the DIR moniker

[TSandM]

I don't think Bob criticized them, per se; he did observe that the additions to the Infinity don't follow the guidelines of minimalism that GUE espouses. But I don't think there is any reason for Halcyon to restrict themselves to the building of GUE-ideal gear. Why? There's a very large recreational diving market of people who will never take GUE training, and there's no reason why Halcyon shouldn't create products to appeal to those folks.

It's only in OUR minds that Halcyon and DIR are synonymous.

 

[ScubaFeenD]

I don't think Bob criticized them, per se; he did observe that the additions to the Infinity don't follow the guidelines of minimalism that GUE espouses. But I don't think there is any reason for Halcyon to restrict themselves to the building of GUE-ideal gear. Why? There's a very large recreational diving market of people who will never take GUE training, and there's no reason why Halcyon shouldn't create products to appeal to those folks.

It's only in OUR minds that Halcyon and DIR are synonymous.

I recently called Halcyon for customer support, and the automated, orwellian female voice clearly states that they are your doing it right" gear manufacturer ( actually thought the voice on the line was amazing and awesome--i look forward to calling halcyon again )Now, I have no problem with that, nor do i have a problem with their link (however small or large it is) with GUE and DIR diving in general. I have never felt pressured to buy halcyon when interacting with my local GUE instructor, although the gear has always been recommended as high quality (which I have learned myself over time).

What saddens me about the catering to a less minimalist crowd is that it seems like a deviation of principle. I have seen videos of JJ, where he tells a reporter that GUE holds high standards because they believe that is the right way to teach and to dive (when i say right, i am referring to philosophy of high standards, and high skill even in the entry level, not the gear config or specific skill protocols). I found it really refreshing. What I find sad about this is that they SEEM to be compromising their beliefs just to sell a few extra BP/Ws. Now that isnt to say that the cinch system isnt a great addition to the lineup of gear. It is great for renting BP/Ws and it can be helpful for persons with decreased mobility to enjoy a simpler harness system. However, padding? Is that really how the DIR community wants to get newer members to open their minds? I am new, and I admit when i first looked at a BP and harness I thought, "god that has to be uncomfortable. where is all the padding?" Members here, in different threads and such, explained that it isnt uncomfortable and after trying it I fell in love.

Point is, there are sooo many great things about the system of diving, that if you need to sell padding, and deviate from the systems minimalist ideals, just to get customers, then the divers and dive shops arent doing a very good job communicating with the potential "converts" (sorry for the religious/cultish reference of converts, not meant to insinuate a cult). Plus, your not going to convert a large cohort of "recreational" diver just with padding. You need to really illustrate how great unified team diving is, how great the skills are, and how comfortable the diving can be.

There are, of course, things I am probably overlooking.I admit I am very fresh, and as a new "convert" I sometimes exhibit more zeal than i have right to--please dont misunderstand my posts as disrespectful to the large pool of experience and training represented here. Further, I dont teach and dont own a dive shop, so I apologize in advance if I am misunderstanding. I welcome clarification

 

[DiverLaura]

I asked JJ about this specifically when i was down at Long Beach show, the second time I saw the Cinch harness, the appealing to the larger audience thing, and wasn't that a departure...

his response, although keep in mind i'm paraphrasing here, was something like this... Indeed there is a larger market out there, divers who have no idea who or what GUE fundamentals is, or DIR diving (or whatever you want to call it). They are divers who will never see past a Jacket BCD without a bit of help. His hope is that even if they have no idea about the style of diving that the Infinity is built around, that after they have purchased it and start diving it, they will gently fall into a style of diving closer to that which we (you and i on this board) deem "better".

The chance that a random recreational diver is going to find more efficient, more comfortable, less cluttered, better trim, more streamlined diving in that jacket BC is not unheard of but much less likely. Give that same diver a BC system that is streamlined and designed for efficient uncluttered diving from the get go, the chance that they will have a better, more enjoyable diving experience is higher (and therefor they may dive more) and they might look at the pictures, look at the Halcyon web site, look at the dives other halcyon divers are doing, and start to wonder what it will take to get there... Human nature is such that many people get curious about 'why'. Why are there only 3 D rings, Why is this a single webbing, Why is this inflator hose shorter? As they seek out answers to their questions, will they not stumble on "DIR"? It's a pull not push kind of thing... think about how hard it was to push some of you into "DIR", into a backplate and wings, etc... Now that you are there, the zeal with which you stand behind your decision is testament to the benefits of the 'system'.

if we really want the greater diving populous to find a better way of diving, we have to pull them in, make them curious and want to try it, not push them towards it.

its simply a case of "if we build it, they will come".



of course the recreational market is larger, and of course it makes sense that if Halcyon is to grow it needs to sell more equipment, but I personally don't think it's as cut and dry as just saying "oh, they are just marketing for the recreational diver for market share" Look at the price point they are coming in at, look at their partners (scubapro) as opposed to a cheaper alternative that other companies sell OEM. if they really wanted the recreational market, they'd make a $399 "kit" (cheap crap gear) that would get you into H gear just for visibility and to capture the 'first buyer' on price alone, and quite simply I don't see that happening.

 

[TSandM]

Interesting perspective, Laura . . . and it's certainly true that the price point doesn't look like something they chose with market share in mind

 

[ScubaFeenD]

<snipped for utility>

of course the recreational market is larger, and of course it makes sense that if Halcyon is to grow it needs to sell more equipment, but I personally don't think it's as cut and dry as just saying "oh, they are just marketing for the recreational diver for market share" Look at the price point they are coming in at, look at their partners (scubapro) as opposed to a cheaper alternative that other companies sell OEM. if they really wanted the recreational market, they'd make a $399 "kit" (cheap crap gear) that would get you into H gear just for visibility and to capture the 'first buyer' on price alone, and quite simply I don't see that happening.

Thank you for posting this--its a great perspective on the situation of attracting newer divers. I have to say, as I was reading your first part I did dart to the same thought TS&M had regarding entry level price. Im sure there are some people that wonder, "how can a piece of metal and some webbing cost sooo much more than a jacket BC with all its cool feature and BLING?!" Honestly, lowering the price seems like the best way to attract those on-the-edge buyers earlier on.

Really though, I think JJ and AG both have a much higher wall to climb and that is just the industry itself. Magazines that show flashy gear, and dive shops that sell it. The definitions of "technical" and "recreational", and the pervasive lowering of standards. Its really hard to make money in a sea of companies if you cant constantly "innovate" and add features, especially where little improvement is needed. And with regards to definitions, I have been told that i am clearly a technical diver because of my gear, but in actuality I only have ~40 dives; in the mind of some divers they just arent on the right side of the pre determined schism in diving, and so need not worry about different gear.

While i recognize that there are many (perhaps 50%) divers that are "converted" via the gear config, I am still of the opinion that many come to the DIR trough because they want to be challenged and have more expected of them. They want to learn to be great as opposed to worry about getting a card and still having apprehension about diving in. (disclaimer: I am not saying you cant get it outside of the "dir" agencies, its just a little more certain to have higher standards and better skills coming out and its more of a crap shoot in the sea of other agencies)However, I can see how introduction to halcyon may lead people down that path simply through research. But, perhaps TS&Ms email could be handed out with each BC too

Again, thank you ScooterGirl, your post was enlightening.

 

[Cave Diver]

I'm not seeing that anything I wrote was inaccurate ...

It was a generalization about the way things get relayed on the internet. Not directed at anything you personally said.

 

[nielsent]

Just a bit of an anecdote here about DIR about myself, but I was converted to the gear very early on in my diving career, well before I had even heard about the term DIR. I learned about long hoses, can lights, bp/w's, and bungeed back-ups from a old NAUI salt. He expected a lot out of a diver and when he went diving he was an extremely strong diver. He was an old military tech man and believed firmly in a strong team while diving, and he imparted to me a large amount of that. However, he also imparted upon me some things that would not be considered DIR, but I never even thought twice about it, because again, I never had heard of DIR.

Then, when I finally did hear about DIR, I thought it was an excellent system! I was really excited to learn more about it and start diving with DIR divers. I ended up meeting a DIR diver, and because of the things that I enjoyed doing that were not DIR and the fact that I couldn't afford some of the equipment and training, the diver didn't dive with me. Unfortunately, the diver was the only DIR diver in the area i knew, and the community was very close knit. It seemed rather sad to me that such a thing would happen, when I was really excited to learn more and be part of it.

I had a knee jerk reaction to this, which was to immediately dislike the DIR system, not because of its philosophy, but because of a zealous diver that mistreated me. It seems that there are a lot of stories out there that are similar based on what others have said. After leaving the area I did meet a few other DIR divers that were a whole different story, and it did excite me that the divers didn't all have the same attitude. I didn't get the chance to dive with them, but I got a lot of emails and more than a few invites.

That hasn't deterred me though, I would still love to learn more and take courses, but the real problem is that it is very expensive for someone who just finished university and has no job, and I had to move to an area where there are no DIR divers. Hell there are barely and divers period.

But more to the point of the thread, when people see me in my kit, which is essentially DIR, with a few exclusions that I can't afford (a can light for example), a number of divers have asked me if I am a DIR diver, sometimes it&#8217;s said with disdain and sometimes with excitement.

I always say to them "I am not DIR, I am STI." This always leads to them asking, "What is STI?" to which I reply "Striving to Improve."

 

[HenrikBP]

I'm not seeing that anything I wrote was inaccurate ...

Lots of padding on the rig now ... including shoulder pads. And some nice plastic bits with rollers on the backplate to make adjusting the harness a breeze.

Hi Bob,

Since I was the one commenting on what you wrote let me explain: My understanding/interpretation of your use of the terms "rollers" and "plastic bits" made me think you thought the Cinch plate was 1) multiple pieces and 2) some of those bits are moving, neither of which is the case.

I apologize if I misunderstood.

Henrik

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Wait, did you actually criticize these new systems without knowing that you can retrofit them onto halcyon plates? I am not a fan of them myself, because I think they are unnecessary, but I havent tried them so I will reserve judgement.

... in what manner do you believe I criticized Halcyon. I clearly stated that I like the new system ... but, to paraphrase an old commercial ... it ain't your father's DIR.

Actually, I think appealing to a wider audience is good business ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ScubaFeenD]

... in what manner do you believe I criticized Halcyon. I clearly stated that I like the new system ... but, to paraphrase an old commercial ... it ain't your father's DIR.

Actually, I think appealing to a wider audience is good business ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Well, based on my own assumption as to what is good and bad, I took your determination that it isn't DIR as a criticism. I apologize if I misunderstood your statement due to my biases and assumptions.