The deep air angle - split from Missouri Fatality

[Blackwood]

I'm not sure what you're reading into it.

That one of the reasons you are attracted to diving is the lack of personal restraints.

It just struck me as odd since it doesn't have anything to do with the activity itself. It would make more sense to me and I wouldn't have given it a second thought had you said "...that I like..." rather than "...attracts me to..."

Don't worry about it, I'm just being me (a devout literalist).

What, then, is the point of objecting ... particularly over and over, and using such emphatic choices of terminology?

I suppose you'd have to ask those who object over and over.

A few things I've read are (paraphrased):

*saddened by deaths that may have been avoided with other gas choices,
*annoyed by the lack of access to certain dive sites associated with accidents,
*abhorrence to the idea (right or wrong) of teaching others that diving air deep is safe.

Adding to that: it's fun. I don't generally get involved, especially in the last half-dozen or so go-arounds between Wayne and Adam. But I do enjoy a good debate, and I doubt I'm alone in that.

 

[Scott L]

Coming in late in this latest deep air thread. What agency or poster has advocated enforcebale rules for He usage beyond a set END?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

A few things I've read are (paraphrased):

*saddened by deaths that may have been avoided with other gas choices,
*annoyed by the lack of access to certain dive sites associated with accidents,
*abhorrence to the idea (right or wrong) of teaching others that diving air deep is safe.

Adding to that: it's fun. I don't generally get involved, especially in the last half-dozen or so go-arounds between Wayne and Adam. But I do enjoy a good debate, and I doubt I'm alone in that.

I'm not convinced those deaths were due to gas choices. That may have been a contributing factor ... but I'd say most of those deaths were due to people overestimating their abilities, and finding themselves in a situation they weren't really equipped to deal with. Even with helium, once people start gambling with Darwin they're eventually going to come out on the short end of the wager.

And I'm not sure anyone's said diving deep air is safe ... I read some saying that it has risks, but that with proper training those risks are manageable. That's not saying the same thing. I'm certain that I don't want to do it. I'm equally certain I'm not qualified to judge how well it works for someone else. I know a fellow who routinely does dives to 250 feet on air. I choose not to accompany him on those dives, but he seems like a pretty normal fellow to me ... and he ain't dead yet.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[plot]

Coming in late in this latest deep air thread. What agency or poster has advocated enforcebale rules for He usage beyond a set END?

A few posters (mainly PfcAJ), thinks the max END should be 100ft, and therefore you shouldn't dive air past 100 feet. (I might be putting words in his mouth with the air statement).

Anything with an END below 100 feet is where he claims divers starts to die.

 

[plot]

You can make all the rules you want the question is though, how will they be enforced?

Is it better to attempt to train those who want to learn / do risky things or let them go for it without any training.

Personally I think there will be fewer deaths with training, than without, which will be better for our industry as a whole. Though it is regretful and sad for anyone to die diving.

Divers traditionally have always pushed the limits some died in the process. Since this sport/hobbie/passion (what ever you want to call it) typically attracts the adventurous type of person, I think because of this we will continue to see people pushing the limits. IMO, education is the key - help them to understand the known dangers and encourage them to make safe dives.

A little backstory:
This thread was actually split off from a fatality thread where a student died recently (easter weekend) during a tech deep class with an instructor. The instructor surfaced 20-30 minutes earlier, confused, onlookers just thought he was tired, he never mentioned having a student in the water, later he took a few chamber rides. The student surfaced later, CPR was performed, he was pronounced officially dead at a hospital later. Max depth on his computer showed 179', he was diving air, he had air left in his tanks, nobody know how deep he was when he began his ascent but the autopsy lists death by overexpansion of his lungs. As is usually the case with these incidents, nobody knows what went wrong, and realistically, we probably never will.

SOOO... PADI tech deep class is done on air between like 120' and 165', he was there for education and with an instructor. The guy was there for training... for education... and died during it... sparking the arguement of why is this class tought on deep air. So what's considered deep air and a safe depth to dive on air? Should classes be tought within this realm?

 

[Indian Valley Scuba]

For thirty years the Andrea Doria was dove on air to 240 ft, with few issues. Now we dive it on Trimix and say it could never have been done any other way! Diver training and acceptance of the risk is key, not blaming it on an agency or a standard or statistics. Be smart, and plan to dive not only today, but tomorrow too!

 

[DaleC]

I think some people confuse the practicality of diving deep air with the optimality of it.
When He is cheap and commonplace I'm sure the world will be a happier place.

 

[PfcAJ]

A few posters (mainly PfcAJ), thinks the max END should be 100ft, and therefore you shouldn't dive air past 100 feet. (I might be putting words in his mouth with the air statement).

Anything with an END below 100 feet is where he claims divers starts to die.

First statement is true, 2nd statement isn't.

I feel that 100ft END (or less) should be maintained because past that, the haze of narcosis seems to really start affecting folks. Deep diving is dangerous enough even on gas, no reason to add in excessive narcosis into it.

Its just harder to deal with things with a high END. Should people be allowed to dive deep air? Sure, have a blast. Teach it? No. Just like I don't think scuba classes should be taught without SPGs or cave/tech classes without doubles. Will not having an SPG kill you? Nope, people did it for years. Is it optimal? Nope.

Dive training should provide the optimal solutions for the environment the diver wants to explore.

 

[Rhone Man]

Spot on IMO. These threads are just an attempt to aggrevate the GUE crowd. How anyone could argue with someone who has chosen a relatively lower END then they is beyond me. Similar to suggesting they have one more drink before hitting the road...

That post bothered me slightly when I read it, and I couldn't put my finger on why. But I think it is the suggestion as to how and why these threads get pushed.

When I was young and niave, and before I had even heard of the deep air debate, I posted a thread basically saying "Hey, I am off to learn about tec diving doing a couple of TDI courses, does anyone have any tips and suggestions." And I got an avalanche of replies saying "save your money, and take a helium based course instead."

When I was older and less niave, I posted a thread about the severe physiology of ultra deep air dives (particularly why the buggers never toxed). I got an avalanche of replies saying "Why do you waste everyone's time trying to justify deep air?" Not one sensible reply was posted about oxygen toxicity.

Finger pointing is not productive (nor is pointing out finger pointing), but I think is is misconceived to say this is all about trolls trying to bait the GUE crowd. I have seen of people leaping onto threads to aggressively push the other way.

 

[Luku]

A little backstory:
SOOO... PADI tech deep class is done on air between like 120' and 165', he was there for education and with an instructor. The guy was there for training... for education... and died during it... sparking the arguement of why is this class tought on deep air. So what's considered deep air and a safe depth to dive on air? Should classes be tought within this realm?

I read the back story before posting.

I guess my point is diving and learning different techniques in diving can be risky. Instructors and their students can die. It's not unlike flight school where the flight instructors and students can and do die or sky diving where instructors and students can and do die. Just because you are with an instructor SCUBA diving doesn't mean you can't die. Is any depth safe, after all an air embolism can occur in less than 10'.

This wasn't the first tech diver / student to die and sadly I don't think it will be the last. It's part of the sport we engage in.

I still believe there will be fewer deaths with training, than without, helping divers to understand the known dangers and encourage them to make safe dives is important.