The Wisdom? of Split Dives Discussion

[tekkydiver]

Couldn't they just go on different boats?



Are you saying that there is no safety advantage of surface support? Especially for a technical dive?

I mean, most of the accidents that I have seen around here involve the injured diver being immediately brought on board the dive platform where things like O2, AEDs, CPR, radio contact with first responders and rapid evacuation are options. Not to mention the risk of secondary drowning when an injured diver makes it to the surface but can't be kept afloat in the open ocean.

Not sure what you mean by factual data. To prove that in a study, you would need to study randomized matched cohorts of dives. Given the rarity of these accidents, you would probably need a few thousand dive trips in each arm to reach statistical significance. The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence



C'mon, don't trivialize the issue.

I get it that it's a calculated risk, and it's part of the dive culture there. I'm not saying it's stupid, I'm just a Yankee wreck diver, I would never go down there and tell you guys how to operate in your conditions. All diving is a calculated risk, especially CCR and technical diving.

But no surface support is no surface support, however you want to spin it. In my mind, that ain't the same thing as tank color.

It is not uncommon to come across divers on the surface and the Dive Op over a mile away. Many times I have stayed close by and baby sat. I would never dive on a Palm Beach or Broward County Dive op

 

[tekkydiver]

I think "stupid" is too strong a word. A risk benefit analysis was done, if only in his head, and he decided that in this case it was worth the risk.


In which case his analysis may still have been correct. But even if it wasn't, I still think "stupid" is too strong a word.

Instead of Stupid.... How about Unsafe?

 

[L13]

Instead of Stupid.... How about Unsafe?

Less safe?

 

[johndiver999]

If any extremely well respected and experienced tech diver thought this practice was sufficiently safe, I would be hesitant to place blame on the operator for the outcome. Everyone involved had to 100% recognize that if some sort of short term emergency occurred, "you are on your own" with this sort of arrangement. Simply because there was no support and a death occurred, does not make the practice anymore dangerous than it was a week before. However, I am surprised that at least some of the participants apparently didn't carry a marine radio if this was common practice.

Plus, it sounds like there is no agency guidance on this issue, or I assume someone would have stated that fact by now. I am somewhat surprised that this sort of situation is allowed for training dives, actually.

If someone wants to change the SOP of operators in this regard, perhaps pursuing the training agencies to issue "some guidance" might be a logical direction, rather than pointing fingers at a particular operator who is ostensibly "following the rules"?

 

[doctormike]

I don't think that this has to be seen as finger pointing. Like many diving practices, things like this evolve over the years, typically following an accident where some practice is seen as contributory. Nothing is written in stone, and stuff today that is considered standard might have been seen as unnecessary decades ago. Rebreather divers didn't always carry bailout, right?

While of course a death doesn't make the practice any more dangerous, I have a hard time seeing how it is not - to some degree - dangerous. It was before the accident, and it is now.

And it's extra risk that is entirely assumed for financial reasons. Even that's not necessarily a deal breaker, we have to draw the line somewhere. I don't go on boat dives with a helicopter on the deck in case I need a rapid evacuation.

Think about why no one cave dives now without a line to open water - that wasn't always a standard. Maybe we can do what generations of divers have done before us: look at our normalized practices and see if there is room for improvement.

 

[sheeper]

in general we run deep technical dives only as dedicated tech boats with the boat providing surface support on-site. Sometimes we'll run split boats BUT that is for dives within recreational limits. For example, an ANDP instructor is taking a student to 110' feet and the OW divers need 60'.
Once we start talking about dives past 130'....it's a tech boat. And yes....it costs a little bit more as we put fewer divers on board.

 

[scubadada]

It is not uncommon to come across divers on the surface and the Dive Op over a mile away. Many times I have stayed close by and baby sat. I would never dive on a Palm Beach or Broward County Dive op

This is a very interesting comment. We don't usually describe reef drift dives as split dives, but some of them start off and/or end that way.

The operators I use in Boynton Beach do not put a guide in the water. Solo divers or groups are dropped separately with a flag. Sometimes the groups start off reasonably close to one another, sometimes not. I often start my dive on the outside reef, most start on the inside reef. After an hour dive, groups can end up quite far apart.

In Jupiter and Palm Beach, the operators I use put a guide in the water with a single flag. The dive is generally started as a group. You are not required to stay with the group and can ascend on your own DSMB at the end of the dive time. Again, groups can end up quite far apart.

As I am generally solo, I would have no help on the surface should I have a problem. Sometimes my boat is right there and the pick up is very quick. Sometimes my boat is not to be seen and I have waited perhaps 15 min for pick up. When the swells are up, I worry a little about the boat being able to spot my flag or DSMB. I dive with a Nautilus Lifeline but have not used it, yet.

 

[scubaozy]

I did split drop for different experience levels in the past but always around the same reef. Boat/surface support must have direct visual contact for both groups at all times. Anything else is not a very safe practice. I do understand, it is tempting for divers as well as boat charters as everyone will be catered but it is naively optimistic.

 

[doctormike]

Yeah, why don't people just buy another boat and hire a captain and staff to maintain it...

Is that the only solution you can think of? How about what was mentioned upthread? Do dedicated tech trips and charge more.

That works here, and it sounds like at least one Florida operator is able to make that work without buying an extra boat..

 

[berndo]

Is that the only solution you can think of? How about what was mentioned upthread? Do dedicated tech trips and charge more.

That works here, and it sounds like at least one Florida operator is able to make that work without buying an extra boat..

You can't just do dedicated tec trips anywhere. This works in some locations.
When you have a boat as a business it's need to run all the time. You can't just have a rec and a tec boat and run the tec boat some of the time and charge whatever. There is a limited market. You mentioned tec trips go out in your area during the summer. How do you think the person that runs those trips bought the boat? From doing weekend trips during the summer? Is this guys running a business or is that his hobby?

You don't seem to realise that people need to work with what they have.
If a shop that runs one boat, they will try to fill it to pay the bills... if they can fill a second boat on a constant basis, they probably would buy a second boat.

The group who did this split drop probably knew is wasn't ideal and I'm sure they would have preferred a large private boat with a lift and a personal masseuse for each diver.

You keep bringing up this 'financial issue'. (Sorry, I'm slighty annoyed by that).
Do you really not understand why people tend to do stuff that's not the best possible option money can buy?

Mike said that Joe also thought split drops are stupid... so why do you think they did it? Maybe because this was the only feasible or practical option at the time?