The Wisdom? of Split Dives Discussion

[doctormike]

Sounds like a long explanation for "it's cheaper to do it this way, so we are assuming the extra risk"

I mean, it's fine if that's the case. As I have said, I'm not telling anyone not to do that, let alone experienced tech divers.

I'm just saying that for MY diving, that's not the standard of care, and there is no way that I would do a deep technical CCR dive with no dive boat on station. And for many years, I have not had to make that choice, since all the technical wreck diving that I have done - here, in Florida, in Truk Lagoon, in Newfoundland - having the dive boat on station has been a given.

So maybe in Florida it's not possible to do that because of reasons.

Seriously, I'm not even sure why we are arguing. You seem to admit that it's "not ideal". What do you mean "the only option"? This is recreational diving. It's not a military exercise. So why not make it ideal? Book a tech trip. Or charter the boat and sell the spots yourself - that's what a lot of us do here. Yeah, it's more expensive. Tech diving isn't cheap. But don't trivialize it by comparing it to a personal masseuse.

I don't know why the "financial issue" thing annoys you - aren't you agreeing with me that's what it is? Can you at least admit that a split drop on a deep technical dive is not a standard approach around the world? That this is an outlier?

 

[Nick_Radov]

You can't just do dedicated tec trips anywhere. This works in some locations.
When you have a boat as a business it's need to run all the time. You can't just have a rec and a tec boat and run the tec boat some of the time and charge whatever. There is a limited market. You mentioned tec trips go out in your area during the summer. How do you think the person that runs those trips bought the boat? From doing weekend trips during the summer? Is this guys running a business or is that his hobby?

I don't understand this comment. If you want to do tech dives then just charter the whole boat for yourself and your buddies. Most boat operators are happy to do that rather than selling slots to individual divers. This does require a little advance planning.

 

[berndo]

Sounds like a long explanation for "it's cheaper to do it this way, so we are assuming the extra risk"

You really don't seem to understand. It's about why people doing the cheaper option not that it is the cheaper option.

A company I used to work for had a christmas party. At my table a co-worker told us how much of a PITA it was to find a place to rent for him and his girlfriend. A guy form upper management was also at the table and rolled his eyes and told him they should just buy a house. He didn't understand why this was a dumb comment. (Spoiler: the guy looking to rent didn't have money to buys a house.)

If people had the money to have private boats and private captains, noboby would ever do a split drop. Is this really so hard to understand?

I don't know why the "financial issue" thing annoys you - aren't you agreeing with me that's what it is?

Yeah, no sh_t it's a financial issue. My co-worker in the story above also didn't buy a house because of financial reasons.

My co-worker from the story are the split drop divers and you're the manager.

I'm annoyed because you sound arrogant. Some people would like to dive but don't have tons of money. Might sound weird to you but it's a thing.

But don't trivialize it by comparing it to a personal masseuse.

I'm not trivializing.
I've tried to explain this before and you didn't get the point that why I made an exaggerated example to make it more clear.

 

[johndiver999]

in general we run deep technical dives only as dedicated tech boats with the boat providing surface support on-site. Sometimes we'll run split boats BUT that is for dives within recreational limits. For example, an ANDP instructor is taking a student to 110' feet and the OW divers need 60'.
Once we start talking about dives past 130'....it's a tech boat. And yes....it costs a little bit more as we put fewer divers on board.

Wow and how many hundreds of yards separation in the groups do you feel is sufficiently safe for your customers?

Some of the “stuff” that the scuba industry deems appropriate is far away from my personal decisions.

I am much more comfortable diving deep air solo than doing 130 feet deep drift dive in a screaming current with no boat following me! This is actually becoming one of the more interesting discussions on here.

I know quite a few old school divers who have done thousands of dives over several dozen years in this local area, and much of it solo and they would not stand for any of this sheeet! They want a boat there when they come up.

 

[berndo]

I don't understand this comment. If you want to do tech dives then just charter the whole boat for yourself and your buddies. Most boat operators are happy to do that rather than selling slots to individual divers. This does require a little advance planning.

You need to fill the boat and book way in advance. We used to charter private trips in the balic sea. The issue is that the price goes way up when you only run with a few people and depending on the dive site it's pretty hard to fill a boat and get the people to pay up well in advance. Which you need to do, otherwise some people wont show up and you're stuck with the bill. It's not as easy as you think it is in many places.... that's why you have rec/tec and split drop situations in the first place. Nobody thinks it's ideal, but we live in the real world were not everybody is rich and there are a limited amout of diver and boats.

 

[doctormike]

You really don't seem to understand. It's about why people doing the cheaper option not that it is the cheaper option.

A company I used to work for had a christmas party. At my table a co-worker told us how much of a PITA it was to find a place to rent for him and his girlfriend. A guy form upper management was also at the table and rolled his eyes and told him they should just buy a house. He didn't understand why this was a dumb comment. (Spoiler: the guy looking to rent didn't have money to buys a house.)

If people had the money to have private boats and private captains, noboby would ever do a split drop. Is this really so hard to understand?


Yeah, no sh_t it's a financial issue. My co-worker in the story above also didn't buy a house because of financial reasons.

My co-worker from the story are the split drop divers and you're the manager.

I'm annoyed because you sound arrogant. Some people would like to dive but don't have tons of money. Might sound weird to you but it's a thing.


I'm not trivializing.
I've tried to explain this before and you didn't get the point that why I made an exaggerated example to make it more clear.

I don't think that I'm being arrogant.

If I told you that you should change your cells after a year, would you tell me that some people just can't afford to do that and that I shouldn't be arrogant?

If I told you that you shouldn't run your 3 hour scrubber for six hours, would you tell me that some people just can't afford to do that and that I shouldn't be arrogant?

If I told you that you shouldn't dive on a boat that hadn't put enough money into it to pass USCG inspection, would you tell me that some people just can't afford to do that and that I shouldn't be arrogant?

You are making it sound like I'm proposing some luxury extravaganza. It's not. It's what the majority of the tech diving world considers normal safety standards.

Lots of tech diving happens without leaving divers alone in the ocean. It's hardly the only way to do these dives...

 

[berndo]

I don't think that I'm being arrogant.

Yes, I know. The manager in my story probably didn't think so either.

If I told you that you should change your cells after a year, would you tell me that some people just can't afford to do that and that I shouldn't be arrogant?

Sure dude, 300 bucks per year for cells is exactly the same as private charter for 3 or 4 people. Great example.

 

[Nick_Radov]

You need to fill the boat and book way in advance. We used to charter private trips in the balic sea. The issue is that the price goes way up when you only run with a few people and depending on the dive site it's pretty hard to fill a boat and get the people to pay up well in advance. Which you need to do, otherwise some people wont show up and you're stuck with the bill. It's not as easy as you think it is in many places.... that's why you have rec/tec and split drop situations in the first place. Nobody thinks it's ideal, but we live in the real world were not everybody is rich and there are a limited amout of diver and boats.

I don't know where you're located but in most places there are smaller boats that divers can charter at a reasonable price. These may be like "six pack" boats which normally run fishing charters but will take divers out on request. Talk to the boat captain and explain what you want to do. If they're not familiar with tech diving procedures then you might need to do a trial run recreational dive charter first to verify that they can safely follow instructions.

For the Baltic Sea I can recommend Dive Åland as being a safe operation. They sometimes run dedicated tech charters and allow groups to charter the whole boat. Currents there tend to be minimal so dive team separation is less of an issue.

divealand

The reality is that tech diving is always going to be an expensive activity. There's no shame in being unable to afford it. But if money is an issue then it's better to stick to recreational profiles. Why take risks with sketchy boat operations just to participate in a casual, non-competitive hobby?

 

[doctormike]

The reality is that tech diving is always going to be an expensive activity. There's no shame in being unable to afford it. But if money is an issue then it's better to stick to recreational profiles. Why take risks with sketchy boat operations just to participate in a casual, non-competitive hobby?

^ this

 

[berndo]

The reality is that tech diving is always going to be an expensive activity. There's no shame in being unable to afford it.

You should go back and read what I replied to. Mike didn't understand why people don't just spend way more. It's like saying you shouldn't drive a car if they can't affort a new E-class Mercedes because their safer than an old Toyota. It's an assine argument. People will do what they affort and continue to do so, if you and Mike like it or not.