OP
Teaching contradictions: differing dive training philosophies
- Thread starter The Chairman
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If you are popping to the surface then you forgot what the "C" stands for
OP
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
60 feet per minute is a pop. It's not healthy for anyone to do that over and over. It's not good to teach that it's OK to do this to students.
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I am but a lowly instructor. Engineer by trade. Background in chemistry. Ex EMT. ......
BUT:
I teach my students, and drill into their head, that if they can't properly demonstrate an ESA (just 1), from 20 feet, then they can pass everything else in the course - and I will fail them.
Why? If a student gets DCS, it is fairly easily treatable. However, if they're in an OOA, and noone is around, their only choice is an ESA from depth. And whether or not they remember the guy's name for the gas law that might just kill them, the physics of the matter is that if they don't keep an open airway, and exhale the whole way up, there's a pretty good chance of an over-expansion injury. No ride in the chamber is going to fix that.
So, we do practice horizontal ESA's in the pool, but we do it for real at the lake. I have the student's take turns doing this (I don't do 8 people, in rapid succession). I also use an assistant, and our ratio is 1:4.
Like it or not, if your OOA and no buddy is around, you've got no choice but to swim for it. The key thing is that if you don't "remember" to exhale, then damage is going to occur. The deeper you are, the more the damage.
I'll let the MD's and know-it-alls rip this one up, but the physics of gas expansion doesn't change. I will continue to teach ESA's from 20 feet. And I will continue to explain to my students why I don't do them all at one time.
BUT:
I teach my students, and drill into their head, that if they can't properly demonstrate an ESA (just 1), from 20 feet, then they can pass everything else in the course - and I will fail them.
Why? If a student gets DCS, it is fairly easily treatable. However, if they're in an OOA, and noone is around, their only choice is an ESA from depth. And whether or not they remember the guy's name for the gas law that might just kill them, the physics of the matter is that if they don't keep an open airway, and exhale the whole way up, there's a pretty good chance of an over-expansion injury. No ride in the chamber is going to fix that.
So, we do practice horizontal ESA's in the pool, but we do it for real at the lake. I have the student's take turns doing this (I don't do 8 people, in rapid succession). I also use an assistant, and our ratio is 1:4.
Like it or not, if your OOA and no buddy is around, you've got no choice but to swim for it. The key thing is that if you don't "remember" to exhale, then damage is going to occur. The deeper you are, the more the damage.
I'll let the MD's and know-it-alls rip this one up, but the physics of gas expansion doesn't change. I will continue to teach ESA's from 20 feet. And I will continue to explain to my students why I don't do them all at one time.
diveprof
Contributor
Hope we aren't beating a dead horse here. However, I'll prolong the death rattle a bit as this is an interesting thread. 
For the record, I'm PADI and teach CESAs. I also believe in the "controlled" part of CESAs. OK, that out of the way. Now my question.
In the event that a NASE trained diver suffers a lung expansion injury from a too fast CESA w/o exhaling properly, the attorney for the injured diver asks the instructor in court in front of the jury (yeah I know insurance may likely settle sooner) " the vast majority of scuba certification organizations in the USA (between PADI, NAUI, and SSI alone I think we are probably talking greater than 90%) train their students in the actual performance of a CESA vertically in Open Water wherein they properly demonstrate exhalation on the way up to prevent lung overexpansion injury. Please explain why you and your organization do not teach to the same standard and why you should not be held accountable for this lapse in proper training." Your response is..... Not throwing mud here or disparaging any organization, just interested in how an organization that certifies such a small percentage of divers overall that differs from the greater diving community would address this. Not sure that a "90%+ (likely higher than that) of the scuba certifying organizations are just wrong" approach would work.
For the record, I'm PADI and teach CESAs. I also believe in the "controlled" part of CESAs. OK, that out of the way. Now my question.In the event that a NASE trained diver suffers a lung expansion injury from a too fast CESA w/o exhaling properly, the attorney for the injured diver asks the instructor in court in front of the jury (yeah I know insurance may likely settle sooner) " the vast majority of scuba certification organizations in the USA (between PADI, NAUI, and SSI alone I think we are probably talking greater than 90%) train their students in the actual performance of a CESA vertically in Open Water wherein they properly demonstrate exhalation on the way up to prevent lung overexpansion injury. Please explain why you and your organization do not teach to the same standard and why you should not be held accountable for this lapse in proper training." Your response is..... Not throwing mud here or disparaging any organization, just interested in how an organization that certifies such a small percentage of divers overall that differs from the greater diving community would address this. Not sure that a "90%+ (likely higher than that) of the scuba certifying organizations are just wrong" approach would work.
OP
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
What surprises me, is why injured instructors don't go after agencies that require this. Look at it: you're talking about a "what if" and here we have many "actually happened". What about those divers who get injured/bent doing bounce dives and can point to this very inconsistency? Again, we're not talking about what ifs, but accidents that have actually happened.
I really have a hard time buying that a CESA is a bounce dive, c'mon, we are in 15 to 20 feet of water. I know some instructors may not like CESA's, but how many have been injured? Do you have any numbers? what kind of injuries?
OP
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
I have only anecdotal evidence, but I have met at least a dozen instructors who have been injured during a CESA and at least half of them can't teach anymore. You can't suspend physics and physiology just to do a stunt. Are there any studies to show that only horizontal CESAs result in any less of an ability to do a real one? I don't think so.
Peter,
you still have not answered diveprof's question.
But I really do not see this as any kind of a stunt, but as a valuable training exercise. What kind of injuries were sustained? I realize that I am not in Florida, so it is fair to say that you have met more instructors than I, but if this was causing injuries you would think after 24 years of teaching scuba that I would have met at least one. Not to mention in the 100's of CESA's I have conducted you might think I would have had at least a minor issue.
You are the one making a claim that CESA's injure instructors, I am just asking for the data.
you still have not answered diveprof's question.
But I really do not see this as any kind of a stunt, but as a valuable training exercise. What kind of injuries were sustained? I realize that I am not in Florida, so it is fair to say that you have met more instructors than I, but if this was causing injuries you would think after 24 years of teaching scuba that I would have met at least one. Not to mention in the 100's of CESA's I have conducted you might think I would have had at least a minor issue.
You are the one making a claim that CESA's injure instructors, I am just asking for the data.
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