OP
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
I answered you a half hour before you posted.
Teaching contradictions: differing dive training philosophies
- Thread starter The Chairman
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You didn't answer that question, just spun it back to your original point. Also, where is the data to support your injury claim. Even by your anecdotal numbers we have 12 injuries over thousands and thousands of CESA's. Injury rate seems negligible.
Not all certification agencies require CESA, while others do. For me the real question is for those that do, how is it being taught? My definition of mastery (when it comes to CESA) is that the student can accomplish the task with confidence in openwater to the maximum recommended depth for the applicable level of training. If this can't be demonstrated in OW, the student hasn't mastered the skill (imo). A problem can occur when an Instructor 'checks-off' a student skill when the student cannot reasonably undertake the task. With the time restrictions of most programs, I find it hard to believe that thousands of divers being tested per year only require this to be done once before they succeed in mastering this skill. I realize that each Instructor has his/her own definition of 'mastery,' but I cannot help but feel that at times this 'definition' often happens to be a 'convenient reconciliation' made by the Instructor to suit a particular schedule. Perhaps this is facilitated by an opinion that the skill isn't an important one, regardless of the position of the certification agency.
DaleC
Contributor
I don't believe mastery should be left to the individual discrimination of the instructor or it becomes a meaningless term. In any case it should be rephrased as basic competency as few to none can master something while still in the introductory learning phase.
Ideally it should be rephrased as: Competent to continue pursuing refinement of skill without the direct supervision of an instructor. That actually describes what one has achieved and the intention implied by the agency.
I also don't get the "teaching students to bounce dive part".
When a diver CESA's, they do it once - because they've gone OOA. After that I'm pretty sure they are not re-submerging so that they can do another one. That would be part of the instruction I hope. I'm pretty sure most students can differentiate between what the instructor is teaching and the method they need to pursue in order to teach it.
Ideally it should be rephrased as: Competent to continue pursuing refinement of skill without the direct supervision of an instructor. That actually describes what one has achieved and the intention implied by the agency.
I also don't get the "teaching students to bounce dive part".
When a diver CESA's, they do it once - because they've gone OOA. After that I'm pretty sure they are not re-submerging so that they can do another one. That would be part of the instruction I hope. I'm pretty sure most students can differentiate between what the instructor is teaching and the method they need to pursue in order to teach it.
BDSC
Contributor
Totally agree. Most of my closest friends are divers and I have several friends who are instructors. I have been part of this thread and saw the comments about how instructors doing more than one CESA during classes is somehow teaching or setting a bad example to students because they are "teaching" it's OK to bounce dive. So I asked two instructor friends of mine, one an instructor for 40 years this year and the other has been instructing for about 15, if they have ever been challenged or asked by a student why they are "bounce diving" during training. In the combined 55 years of instructing, this had never come up. Never!
OP
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
That's just it... I haven't met "thousands and thousands" of instructors and yet I have have met quite a number who have been injured while doing a CESA. I wonder why these types of injuries would not be advertised? That could lead to a class action suit, doncha think?
But the real issue for me, is that you are doing a disservice to your students by setting a poor example. Unless you want them following in your footsteps with little regard to multiple rapid ascents, then doing this is counter productive. I see it all the time here in the Keys: peeps just pop to the surface with little thought as to what they are putting their body through. To 60fpm is what they saw their instructor do over and over and over again. I teach one descent and one ascent per dive. You certainly don't have to teach it that way.
diverrex
Contributor
Dale, it always falls to the instructor. In other words, does the student 'master' the skills required or not? The 'mastery' required for a skill, such as mask clearing for example, is universal regardless of the program level. When it comes to CESA, the level of skill required for an 'advanced course' is different from that of an OW program, as the recommended 'maximum depth' is different. If the criteria for an OW diver is that the diver is competent to dive with a Buddy unsupervised, s/he should not 'require' further instruction to do so with a reasonable degree of safety. All divers that continue to learn and gain experience will expand their 'diving envelope;' however they should be competent to dive under similar conditions in-which they were certified and to the recommended maximum depth of their training program.
OP
The Chairman
Chairman of the Board
Are you kidding me? In the student's eyes the instructor is the epitome of Scuba Diving. They are the rock star and they want to JUST LIKE THEM. They will imitate ALL of your habits and quirks: good, bad or indifferent. That's why it's quite important for every instructor to embody the habits and skills they want their students to embrace at all times. If you and your students kneel on the bottom, you can bet that they will too. If you kick the crap out of the reef, then they will too. If you don't take the time to plan your dive, check your kit or establish a buddy, then they won't either. In the same way, if you ascend multiple times at 60fpm and they don't see you writhing in agony, well then, they will feel free to do that also. Not only will they feel "free" to do it, but it will become a badge of honor for them to have done it.
Pete, I understand and agree with you to a point. The Instructor should set a good example, something in-which the Instructor described above isn't doing. That doesn't mean that the Instructor who does more than one CESAs from 60 FSW is breaking the rules? As long as s/he's diving within the tables, they are setting a good example. Perhaps you can explain your concern...
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