Teaching contradictions: differing dive training philosophies

[The Chairman]

Sounds like an instructor doing multiple classes on the same day to me. Actually, maybe even late on the second dive of the first class. How's the student supposed to know the difference anyway? All they see are multiple ascents and descents and will ultimately follow suit when it's convenient.

 

[Thalassamania]

I don't know about your students, mine know enough that they'd call you on the incorrectness of your opinions concerning decompression and bubble pumping rather than focus on what you insist on seeing as a bad example.

 

[diveprof]

Sorry for a late followup to my last post as I've been traveling. After catching up on the posts, my concern is that as a NASE instructor (with NASE probably certifying less than 3% of all OW divers in the USA)you are saying that the other 97% are engaging a dangerous activity to the student (by example) and to themselves as instructors without solid science to back this up. Wow. Again, in a court case how defensible is this position when you are definitely going against the grain of what the vast majority of the rest of the OW certification agencies in the USA adhere to. Also, some have mention that you are a NAUI instructor. If so, how does not conducting this OW skil play out for you as a NAUI instructor (other NAUI instructors talk of their conducting CESA as part of training - I'm not NAUI so I'm not sure if this a mandatory requirement in NAUI)?

 

[redacted]

You didn't answer that question, just spun it back to your original point. Also, where is the data to support your injury claim. Even by your anecdotal numbers we have 12 injuries over thousands and thousands of CESA's. Injury rate seems negligible.

12 reported injuries should have been sufficient to get DAN, dive agencies, and OSHA involved in looking at the problem.

 

[The Chairman]

I was a NAUI instructor. I left them for reasons other than CESAs and teaching while kneeling.

Speaking of which, I wonder how many see kneeling to learn skills as being acceptable? I would imagine the same people who can trivialize the bad example set by multiple ascents would not see an issue with this as well. It's all in how we see fit to teach.

 

[diveprof]

Thanks for clearing up the NAUI part. You still didn't respond to the rest of my post.

 

[The Chairman]

How many times do I HAVE to respond to the same argument? If you are trying to scare me into following the crowd it's simply not going to work. My insurance agency knows the standards to which I teach and they are OK with this.

 

[diveprof]

That's fine and I'm glad your insurance company does - still would be interesting to see how this would play out in court. Still you are lauching pretty serious criticism at the other 97% of ow instructors in the USA without a scientific basis. You would probably be better off to just say "This is what I believe and do" and leave it at that rather than telling others that what they are doing is setting a bad example and is "wrong." From what I've read thus far, there isn't scientific evidence to support your claims and your comments and the fact that it differs from the other 97% of the USA OW diving world only serves to weaken your position.

 

[The Chairman]

still would be interesting to see how this would play out in court.

It's funny, but I train in a manner to keep my students safe and me out of court.

You would probably be better off to just say "This is what I believe and do" and leave it at that rather than telling others that what they are doing is setting a bad example

Except that I believe that it IS a bad example for divers everywhere. Why should I lie to save your feelings? Unfortunately, I see the fall out here in the Keys all the time. People kneeling/standing/lying on the reefs because they don't know any better. Others popping up and down like it doesn't matter at all. Where did they learn these behaviors? Well, I have seen instructors doing these same things from all the agencies. There's a proverb that states that I would rather see a sermon than hear one any day. The students aren't seeing much of an example.

Am I alone in this? Almost. I left one agency because it ceased being the leader it claimed to be. At least now I have found an agency that isn't afraid to set a great example and I am proud to teach for them. That's leadership and leadership by example and not by some empty boast. It's OK if you don't get it. I want to find the people it does matter to.

BTW, I would love to see the scientific basis for kneeling in class as well as the one that says vertical CESAs are the only way to teach. Go ahead... bring 'em out. I'm patient. I'm not a lemming that blindly follows the crowd. As my momma would say: "If everyone jumped off of a cliff, would you follow?" And yes, I think jumping off of cliffs sets a bad example too!

 

[SeaCobra]

Having a student scuba diver kneeling, or resting on the bottom of the pool, while learning a skill is not a bad thing. It allows them to focus solely on the skill. It is what happens next that is important, progressing to being able to do that skill mid-water.

A vertical CESA teaches some very important skills, when taught properly; the direction of travel in an emergency, controlling ascent rate, dealing with expansion of the air in bc and proper exhaling.