Teaching contradictions: differing dive training philosophies

[diveprof]

It's funny, but I train in a manner to keep my students safe and me out of court.


Except that I believe that it IS a bad example for divers everywhere. Why should I lie to save your feelings? Unfortunately, I see the fall out here in the Keys all the time. People kneeling/standing/lying on the reefs because they don't know any better. Others popping up and down like it doesn't matter at all. Where did they learn these behaviors? Well, I have seen instructors doing these same things from all the agencies. There's a proverb that states that I would rather see a sermon than hear one any day. The students aren't seeing much of an example.

Am I alone in this? Almost. I left one agency because it ceased being the leader it claimed to be. At least now I have found an agency that isn't afraid to set a great example and I am proud to teach for them. That's leadership and leadership by example and not by some empty boast. It's OK if you don't get it. I want to find the people it does matter to.

BTW, I would love to see the scientific basis for kneeling in class as well as the one that says vertical CESAs are the only way to teach. Go ahead... bring 'em out. I'm patient. I'm not a lemming that blindly follows the crowd. As my momma would say: "If everyone jumped off of a cliff, would you follow?" And yes, I think jumping off of cliffs sets a bad example too!

I'll leave all the hyperbole to you on this and respond with just a few basic points. Skill training is based upon instruction, opportunity for skill development and evaluation of skill mastery. I maintain that one cannot adequately assess mastery of the CESA in a pool swimming horizontally as conditions in the OW environment wherein this is performed vertically are substantially different. Air expansion in the BCD and evaluation of proper reaction to this does not occur when swimming horizontally in a pool. The experience of air escaping from the open airway is decidedly different in a vertical ascent. The student does not experience this occurrence and thus the instructor cannot truly evaluate performance. Therefore, it appears to me that the training in this skill is incomplete if the ow CESA is not performed/evaluated and may put the student at risk should they ever find themselves in a situation where a CESA is the only choice. You keeping citing "safety concerns" but present no evidence to support this stance. So, to me it makes no sense to deviate from the training as provided by the vast majority of instructors.

 

[DCBC]

DCBC, please research bubble pumping.

Pete, with respect, I've made a career out of decompression research (DCIEM) and as a commercial saturation diver. I'm aware of bubble pumping and have been involved in extensive testing using doppler/pulse-echo/harmonic and dual frequency ultrasounds, acousto optic imaging and optical coherence tomography to detect bubbles. I'm not aware of any case of decompression sickness in 60 FSW (or less) that attributes "bubble pumping" as the likely cause, but somehow you seem convinced, so I'd appreciate you providing me with your evidence...

DCS is usually caused by improper use of the tables and the guidelines that go with them. Up to 85% of people that suffer DCS follow the tables. The real problem that exists in recreational diving today, is that the DCS threat is magnified by a higher number of divers:

- possessing high body fat
- a poor level of fitness
- dive after they have consumed alcohol
- are dehydrated
- or who are medically unfit to dive in the first-place.

Add to this are divers who "push" or exceed the tables and can end-up with a diving accident.

I'm experienced enough to have an excellent idea what my safe diving envelope is and always dive within it. Anyone who dives risks injury. I teach my students to know what the decompression rules are (based on science and not rules that I make up). To know themselves and to identify the risk factors, including other factors such as cold water and improper breathing (CO2 increase). To factor in a means of conservatism (a fudge factor) into their dive profile and to never push the tables.

You're missing the real risk of multiple ascents. I would say doing the three dives in such a manner to be excessive and not something the tables were designed to compensate for.

I certainly can't comment on how all decompression tables were designed, but as a member of the DCIEM research team who put together DCIEM's sport diving tables, I don't think I'm missing anything...

Yes, I would call that a bad example.

You of course are entitled to your opinion. I would however be interested in your scientific evidence to support it; but perhaps this is simply unsubstantiated..

Do you require your CESA students to honor that part of your protocol?

I teach NAUI's 30 FPM ascent rate (per standards) and recommend 10 FPM after 10 FSW based upon the research. BTW, if you no longer teach for NAUI, which agency are you affiliated with?

 

[Peter Guy]

SeaCobra wrote

A vertical CESA teaches some very important skills, when taught properly; the direction of travel in an emergency, controlling ascent rate, dealing with expansion of the air in bc and proper exhaling.

While I have no quibbles with the statement, can we also agree that these "very important skills" can be well taught using other methods than teaching the CESA? That, in fact, ALL of these "very important skills" should be/need to be taught to ALL students just to be safe divers regardless of their "air status?"

 

[Thalassamania]

Having a student scuba diver kneeling, or resting on the bottom of the pool, while learning a skill is not a bad thing. It allows them to focus solely on the skill. It is what happens next that is important, progressing to being able to do that skill mid-water.

The whole point is to teach them to stay neutral and off the bottom even when not paying attention. To that end we encourage students to never hold on to the side, go to the surface, or touch the bottom unless doing so is part of the exercise. Are they perfect from the get go? Of course not.

A vertical CESA teaches some very important skills, when taught properly; the direction of travel in an emergency, controlling ascent rate, dealing with expansion of the air in bc and proper exhaling.

Absolutely ... horizontal simulation does not cut it.

 

[The Chairman]

Having a student scuba diver kneeling, or resting on the bottom of the pool, while learning a skill is not a bad thing.

For me it's a horrible example and it sends mixed messages. I never, ever let my students kneel, sit, stand or rest on the bottom and that includes fin pivots. It's a habit I don't want them to have to break and it wastes lots of time in the long run. Buoyancy and trim are the skills all other skills are built on. Once they are comfortable being neutral, everything else, and I mean EVERYTHING else is a piece of cake. Once they have achieved this, they are in control of their diving. You want to talk about a confidence builder? You want to talk about comfort level? This is it. Once the student is in control of their depth and attitude, they are more relaxed and able to learn at a far quicker pace with far better retention. At least, that's been my experience but you'll never know if you never try.

 

[Peter Guy]

NetDoc wrote

I never, ever let my students kneel, sit, stand or rest on the bottom and that includes fin pivots.

Pete, I tip my hat to you for you must be one hell of a lot better instructor than I am.

In my OW pool sessions I'll often be found kneeling on the bottom of the pool -- in 3 feet of water and talking to my students. Heck, in 4 feet of water I'm often found standing on the bottom of the pool and talking with them while they also stand. I'll also confess that when they first start, they are often found touching, perhaps even resting, on the bottom in 3 feet of water.

I applaud you for being able to not have them touch the bottom at any time!

 

[diveprof]

NetDoc wrote
Pete, I tip my hat to you for you must be one hell of a lot better instructor than I am.

In my OW pool sessions I'll often be found kneeling on the bottom of the pool -- in 3 feet of water and talking to my students. Heck, in 4 feet of water I'm often found standing on the bottom of the pool and talking with them while they also stand. I'll also confess that when they first start, they are often found touching, perhaps even resting, on the bottom in 3 feet of water.

I applaud you for being able to not have them touch the bottom at any time!

I agree with Pete's comments about the importance of bouyancy control and also heavily emphasize this in my training - along with proper weighting which is an important factor in bouyancy control. Still, I must confess in the pool I have actually touched the bottom...
Oh sorry, I though I was in the thread on CESAs.

 

[Thalassamania]

I try to spend the entire class up off the bottom. When we are doing scuba stuff I try to spend the entire session underwater. It is kinda interesting to try to teach a session without talking.

 

[The Chairman]

Pete, I tip my hat to you for you must be one hell of a lot better instructor than I am.

Peter, I might think outside the box, but what I do can be accomplished by most any instructor. You just have to commit to it. I do very little talking in my class. I show them the signs we will be using. Half of the first class is getting them comfortable, stable and neutral. Then that skill is simply re-enforced with each additional skill. By the time they get through OW pool sessions, they are doing GREAT. I've had someone comment on me teaching cavern divers in a pool. What a great, albeit blind complement from an instructor I respect. Elena has had people from GUE comment on her students and how trim and stable they are in the water on their check out dives. It wasn't by accident.

I applaud you for being able to not have them touch the bottom at any time!

Make no doubt about it: they do touch the bottom, especially at first. I teach them to use one finger when they are about to touch and they are to think about them having to find a dead spot on the reef. They don't get to use the same finger twice though. This gives them a realistic scenario for when they do come too close and it's ingrained into them that it just isn't good to do. But, we never kneel, we never lie, we never stand on the bottom: not even on the sand. They're allowed one finger at a time until they get it straight.

Let's face it. As instructors we are in effect our student's manager as well as mentor. They don't have the same baggage we have. No one has told them how HARD neutral buoyancy and trim should be, so they don't know that they should fail. As a manager, I set the criteria by which they must be held accountable. I did this as a Service Manager too. If I let them get away with crap, my techs would only give me crap. However, when I clearly stated how I wanted them to perform and simply would not accept less, they did great. Don't sell your students short. You just can't set the bar too high when you set it neutral. Again, try it and see.

Oh sorry, I though I was in the thread on CESAs.

The naming of the thread is unfortunate and it was not my doing. It was split off from a discussion about if/why people exceeded their training. My first post was an assertion that instructors send mixed messages to the point that our students don't often understand what their limits are. When I get to OW, I don't want my students confused by doing a lot of things that they would not encounter in a normal dive. In fact, I want to see them dive using all the skills we just learned in the pool. That shows that they not only can do the skill, but they know when it needs to be done. That's called competency and it's a progression from simple mastery. In OW, I have my students do their skills in situ and not in a serial manner that most instructors do. IOW, rather than have my student hover for X seconds, they are required to maintain neutral buoyancy throughout the dive. Unfortunately, I have seen a number of classes where kneeling is the student's BEST skill after class.

Consequently, I teach that a dive consists of one descent, followed by an ascent with a suitable surface interval between dives. It's my belief that students learn the wrong thing by example from their instructor bouncing up and down like a rabid yo-yo during these CESAs and I also feel it puts the instructor at an elevated risk. So, that's the perspective of the discussion which seems to be lost on most everyone but me. For the record, not only do I not do vertical CESAs or kneel on the bottom, but I also don't allow my students to dive with snorkels while on Scuba. Why? It's how I dive. I am not going to teach my students to do one thing while I do another. I'm not into hypocrisy.

 

[The Chairman]

As a note: I changed the name of the thread to better reflect the Original Post. That should broaden our scope of this discussion a bit.