Teaching contradictions: differing dive training philosophies

[The Chairman]

Asked about the non-normal things he does while conducting an OW checkout

John,

This made me laugh. That's just it: I don't do the "non-normal" crap that passes for instruction when in OW. We dive. We only dive. We don't kneel, we don't act like a yo-yo. We do what they would do on their dives following certification. We practice skills as they should happen on any dive: during our safety stop. Other than that, I expect skills to be done as needed.

I dive in a manner I want my students to dive afterwards. It's just that simple.

As much as John would have everyone believe that I am some sort of villain disguised as a Scuba Instructor, I am quite conscientious and my students are wonderful divers. The proof is in the pudding.

 

[BDSC]

Is it possible that not only instruction has been dumbed down over the years but so has instructors?

 

[The Chairman]

Is it possible that not only instruction has been dumbed down over the years but so has instructors?

I would point out that it should read "so have", but that might prove your point.

Instructional methods have changed over the years and not just for Scuba. Some instructors simply won't evolve and learn to do things better. Most do and have changed their methodology over the years. Change is good.

 

[DCBC]

If you dive like a yo-yo during class, then you are teaching your students to dive like yo-yos. You can dance around it all you want and justify it any way that you can, but you're teaching your students that being a yo-yo is quite OK because YOU do it. If your personal opinion is that this makes a good diver, then so be it. I disagree with you, but what else is new? Calling my opinion unsubstantiated is a vapid appeal to some specious authority you don't possess. I would suggest that you have no substantiation for your opinions either... other than yourself.

You continue to evade and cloud every question you're asked. It is YOU who made the statement that if an Instructor makes more than one ascent during CESA training, that s/he is showing a "bad example." When asked why you feel this way, you give no response. When it's pointed out that this doesn't break any rule of decompression planning, you say to "research bubble pumping." When it is pointed-out that not one case of DCS has been attributed to "bubble pumping" under the depth of 60 FSW, but asks you to substantiate the science on-which your "opinion" is based, you continue to spout nonsense without any evidence to support your position. As I've pointed-out, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but it's usually reasonable in any intelligent conversation to support your position. You obviously don't think that this is necessary and that it's enough just to state what you think. My opinion on this topic is based upon accepted practice, not personal myth.

Another question that you have ignored: Which Agency do you teach for???

...It amazes me that you would suggest that it is unsubstantiated. Perhaps you should open up your world view a bit and see just how viable and powerful example can be in the classroom. ...this methodology prevents bad habits from forming by instilling the good habits from the very start....I've just extended this concept to exclude a few bad behaviors instructors indulge in because they are convenient or appeal to their ego. If the convenience and ego are that important to you, keep doing what you're doing. Me? I'll keep working out ways to set the bar a bit more neutral.

When the "habit" is based upon solid scientific evidence, it's a good example not a bad one. It would seem that what you teach is based upon unsubstantiated personal opinion rather than understanding the real rules of decompression. Perhaps you are being critical without actually knowing the difference yourself...

Like you have stated, students are quick to accept what their Instructor says. In time however, they may come to believe that what they were taught wasn't based upon fact at all.

Convenience and ego have noting to do with it. I want my students to understand the facts and not base their safe diving practice on personal unsubstantiated claims. The student is either taught how to use the decompression tables in the manner that they were intended or they aren't. You've made it clear how you run your program.

 

[The Chairman]

When the "habit" is based upon solid scientific evidence, it's a good example not a bad one.

Please trot out the "solid scientific evidence" that a vertical CESA is needed or even desirable to produce a safe diver. We'll wait while you create and conduct it because there is no such beast. Then trot out the solid scientific evidence that being a yo-yo diver or even kneeling on the bottom is desirable. You like kneeling and yo-yos while I don't. It's as simple as that. I see them as bad habits practiced by a lot of divers and I don't want mine to do that. Suggesting that your teaching technique is based on "solid scientific evidence" is an appeal to an authority that just isn't there. I'll be sure to note that you are clouding and evading any such questions when your evidence can't be found.

To my knowledge, none of my students have ever had to perform a CESA after class. I keep close tabs with most and there have been some OOA incidents that I have been told about, but not one CESA. It's my opinion that the need to teach a CESA comes from some dark fear of a "what if" that's so rare that it's never needed by the majority of divers. How important is a skill that never gets used? Mind you, like buddy breathing, I don't have a problem teaching it horizontally, but once the pool session is over I will be taking my students on actual dives: ones like they will be doing after class. As I noted before, my entire class is devoted to my students learning to dive in such a way that they'll never have to do a CESA. So far, I have been successful.

 

[flots am]

some dark fear of a "what if" that's so rare that it's never needed by the majority of divers.

You should hang out with vacation divers more often. The "once every few years" divers run out of air and pop to the surface quite frequently.

To my knowledge, none of my students have ever had to perform a CESA after class.

Eventually one of them will screw up enough to need to perform one.

flots.

 

[The Chairman]

You should hang out with vacation divers more often.

Dude, I live in Key Largo and often guide divers. My #1 job is to track them and their air so we don't have to do a CESA. Again, I haven't failed on that job either. My #2 job is to keep them off the reef and #3 is to point out all the cool critters they swim over and would never see otherwise.

 

[nimoh]

While I agree that a CESA is not a necessary skill, since as a diver my contingency plans revolve around one major problem. For a CESA to be necessary, there has to be at least two major problems. For example, lost buddy and out of air. However, I also think that if it is going to be taught, it may as well be taught vertically. You do several dives during OW anyway, is there any reason why one of the dives can't be ended with a CESA? (again, I am not an instructor, so it may be that there are better things to be taught on ascents than a CESA that I am missing).

I won't quote any scientific evidence to support this, just my personal opinion.

 

[DCBC]

Please trot out the "solid scientific evidence" that a vertical CESA is needed or even desirable to produce a safe diver. We'll wait while you create and conduct it because there is no such beast.

Pete, as far as CESA is concerned, the evidence is abundant. If a diver finds themselves alone without an available gas source, they have a choice whether to perform an emergency ascent properly, improperly (usually resulting in AGE or another malady), or drown. Personally, I believe that knowing how to do an emergency ascent is better than not knowing, but I understand that everyone will not share my opinion. In-fact, you don't even seem to recognize the logic involved.

Then trot out the solid scientific evidence that being a yo-yo diver or even kneeling on the bottom is desirable. You like kneeling and yo-yos while I don't. It's as simple as that. I see them as bad habits practiced by a lot of divers and I don't want mine to do that. Suggesting that your teaching technique is based on "solid scientific evidence" is an appeal to an authority that just isn't there. I'll be sure to note that you are clouding and evading any such questions when your evidence can't be found.

First of all, I didn't say anything about kneeling in any of my posts. Secondly....

To quote NAUI:

"Surface Interval Time (SIT) must be at least 10 minutes between dives. If your SIT is less than 10 minutes, you must consider your second dive as a continuation of the first dive. NAUI recommends a SIT of at least one hour between dives."

To quote the U.S. Navy Diving Manual:

"Dives following a surface interval of less than 10 minutes are not repetitive dives. The actual bottom time must be added to the subsequent schedule in the Standard Air
Decompression Tables to compute decompression for such dives."

To quote the DCIEM Diving Manual:

"Where the surface interval is less than 15 minutes, determine the EBT (effective bottom time) by adding the total of all BTs (Bottom Times) accumulated by all descents. Apply this to the appropriate table to determine decompression requirements."

Again I'll state that these are NOT "bad habits practiced by a lot of divers." In-fact there are a lot of divers following the procedures that are set down by some of the World's leading authorities on decompression.

Your comment "Suggesting that your teaching technique is based on "solid scientific evidence" is an appeal to an authority that just isn't there. I'll be sure to note that you are clouding and evading any such questions when your evidence can't be found" is absolutely unbelievable. If you are really a certified Instructor(?) why is it that you seem oblivious to what you should be teaching your students? For the 3rd or 4th(?) time, what Agency do you teach for????

To my knowledge, none of my students have ever had to perform a CESA after class. I keep close tabs with most and there have been some OOA incidents that I have been told about, but not one CESA. It's my opinion that the need to teach a CESA comes from some dark fear of a "what if" that's so rare that it's never needed by the majority of divers. How important is a skill that never gets used? Mind you, like buddy breathing, I don't have a problem teaching it horizontally, but once the pool session is over I will be taking my students on actual dives: ones like they will be doing after class. As I noted before, my entire class is devoted to my students learning to dive in such a way that they'll never have to do a CESA. So far, I have been successful.

After 42 years of instruction and a couple of thousand students, I certainly can't say that I've kept in-touch with all of them. I have however received correspondence from a few saying that the emergency ascent training that I gave them has saved their lives. This is not to say that their weren't hundreds of divers who have never had the requirement to use this skill-set, but I'm confident that the majority are glad it was part of their training.

Most people drive around with a spare tire in their trunk and may never have cause to use it. That doesn't mean than they prefer to drive around without one. Like CESA, you only need to use it once to prove its value.

Pete, carry-on thumping your chest, if it makes you feel better. Perhaps one day one of your divers will die because you failed to teach them how to properly make an emergency ascent. If that time comes, I wonder if you will be so full of yourself...

 

[boulderjohn]

Please trot out the "solid scientific evidence" that a vertical CESA is needed or even desirable to produce a safe diver.

The recent study by DAN and PADI found that the most common preventable reason for scuba fatalities by far (second place isn't even in sight) is drowning preceded by air embolism preceded by rapid ascent (probably breath holding) preceded by OOA. That evidence is very solid.

So however we may chide people for forgetting their training and getting into an OOA situation without a buddy nearby, those divers got into that situation, and they did not handle it properly. Chiding the people who died for getting into the situation amounts to shrugging off those deaths and saying it was their fault.

As an instructor, the lesson I get from this very clear analysis is that I must do a stellar job with every aspect of this situation. I must emphasize the buddy system thoroughly. I must emphasize checking gauges thoroughly. I must talk about gas planning and emphasize how much faster gas is depleted at greater depths. I must also recognize that even if I do all of those things as well as I can, there is still the possibility that they may find themselves in that situation. If that does happen, then I want them to be able to do the right thing. It seems to me that I should do a better job of teaching that skill as well, not a lesser job.