Teaching contradictions: differing dive training philosophies

[The Chairman]

Pete, as far as CESA is concerned, the evidence is abundant.

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Misleading vividness here. I teach CESAs and have stated such. I would suggest that you are clouding the question asked of you. Show me evidence, er "solid scientific evidence" that practicing vertical CESAs produces safer divers than having them only practice horizontal CESAs. No obfuscation... stick to the question.

First of all, I didn't say anything about kneeling in any of my posts.

I sure did. Do you have your students kneel? What is your take on that.

Secondly....

"Surface Interval Time (SIT) must be at least 10 minutes between dives. If your SIT is less than 10 minutes, you must consider your second dive as a continuation of the first dive. NAUI recommends a SIT of at least one hour between dives."

Here we have more confusion. It's a second dive, but it isn't. It's interesting that they used the word dive rather than dives or descent, isn't it? It's also interesting that they don't mention third, fourth etc dives. You've extrapolated the tables to include your kind of diving because it does not specifically exclude them. That's NOT solid scientific evidence but rather putting a spin on a swag. Any self respecting student of decompression will tell you that tables are not solid, but a SWAG (Scientific Wild Arsed Guess). Maybe you should do some research on what constitutes "solid scientific evidence". As of this point, I can say that you're doing it wrong.

Perhaps one day one of your divers will die because you failed to teach them how to properly make an emergency ascent. If that time comes, I wonder if you will be so full of yourself...

Wow, what a decidedly horrible thing to wish on anybody or any of their students. I am at a complete loss for words in regards to this and can only attribute it to your frustration at not being able to prove your points. As for being "full" of oneself, you're the one claiming to be an expert on decompression theory, not me. I suppose you have a PHD to back up that claim? Sure, we know by your claims you've participated in some studies, but in what capacity? Were you the leading scientist, a facilitator or just a lab rat? Give us some perspective please. Did those studies include yo-yo divers? I suspect it's just more unsubstantiated extrapolation on your part, but that's just a SWAG at this point.

 

[The Chairman]

The recent study by DAN and PADI found that the most common preventable reason for scuba fatalities by far (second place isn't even in sight) is drowning preceded by air embolism preceded by rapid ascent (probably breath holding) preceded by OOA. That evidence is very solid.

My guess is that %100 of these divers did a vertical CESA in their training. What happened? What would have been the outcomes if they had really learned how to never be OOA or Out of Buddy?

As an instructor, the lesson I get from this very clear analysis is that I must do a stellar job with every aspect of this situation.

On this we fully agree.

 

[DCBC]

...You do several dives during OW anyway, is there any reason why one of the dives can't be ended with a CESA?

Obviously instructors have to comply with any restrictions imposed on them by their certification agency. If CESA is required to be taught (and mastered) by the student, I think it reasonable for the Instructor to recognize that more than one attempt may be required.

For me emergency ascent training is something that I do as a matter of course. I want to consistently improve/maintain my skills and practice is usually what's required to do this. I can exhale on ascent, or breath normally. My breathing pattern doesn't change anything that I have to undertake on the ascent. If I have a requirement to breathe, I breathe. It's not an actual emergency, so nothing is lost. If however, I can successfully CESA to my safety/decompression stop, I feel that I've attained something by practice that otherwise would have been lost. I encourage my students to do the same if they're comfortable.

 

[boulderjohn]

My guess is that %100 of these divers did a vertical CESA in their training. What happened? What would have been the outcomes if they had really learned how to never be OOA or Out of Buddy?

However they were taught, it wasn't good enough. I don't see how doing a lesser job will make that better.

 

[The Chairman]

However they were taught, it wasn't good enough. I don't see how doing a lesser job will make that better.

I would agree. I don't do a "lesser job". In fact, since I only do them in the pool, they probably go through the CESA exercise more than most other students. That being said, I do believe that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Consequently, I spend more time on preventing their need for a CESA than I do actual CESAs.

 

[BDSC]

For the 3rd or 4th(?) time, what Agency do you teach for????

There is a Peter Murray from Key Largo listed as an instructor on the NASE website. According to the NASE website:

"Each level of scuba diving training is consistent with those of other organizations and NASE scuba classes often exceed requirements of other organizations."

 

[The Chairman]

There is a Peter Murray from Key Largo listed as an instructor on the NASE website. According to the NASE website:

The fact of which is in my SB profile as well. It's not like I am hiding from scrutiny here!

"Each level of scuba diving training is consistent with those of other organizations and NASE scuba classes often exceed requirements of other organizations."

That would be a true assessment.

 

[BDSC]

I think you had actually mentioned it earlier in the thread but I wasn't going to go back and read them all.

 

[The Chairman]

I think you had actually mentioned it earlier in the thread but I wasn't going to go back and read them all.

It's been difficult trying to re-answer all the questions I had previously answered. Thanks for catching that one. Perhaps he'll read it this time instead of simply 0accusing me of not answering it again.

 

[Thalassamania]

I would point out that it should read "so have", but that might prove your point. Instructional methods have changed over the years and not just for Scuba. Many instructors simply won't evolve and learn to do things better.

Pete, I rather doubt that changes you are suggesting, such as teaching in mid water are either an evolution, or a way to do things better than they are being done. It is the way I was taught in the class that I took in the late 1960s. It is the way I have taught my entire career. It is a way you just "discovered," fifty years late, and now you are preaching as only the newly converted are able to, and that can only be seen, by an impartial observer as a conceit. But you have another problem, at least two of the things that you are embracing in your enthusiasm (horizontal ascent training and no snorkel) have significant associated training issues. If I might be so bold as to suggest that anytime you find yourself holding an opinion that DCBC, BoulderJohn and I all strongly disagree with (meaning no disrespect through lack of inclusion to any of the other instructors who have expressed an opinion here), you might want to carefully, reconsider your position. Sure, any one of us might be wrong, maybe even two ... but all three? When was the last time you saw all three of us in close agreement about anything except neutral buoyancy teaching?