Teaching contradictions: differing dive training philosophies

[boulderjohn]

It is important. First, it sets up an instructor to tell his students, to NOT follow their example in doing multiple bounce dives. No matter how you cut it, you are promoting bubble pumping and I feel that's wrong and dangerous.

I coached several sports for a quarter century, and I am certified as a coach at a high level by national organizations in several sports. Scuba instruction is really a coaching situation. When teaching skills, the coach regularly and routinely does things that are not game-like, and players know that. Go to a baseball game early enough, and you will see a coach standing by home plate with a fungo bat, slapping ground balls to the infielders. You will not see any of the infielders getting together and saying to each other, "Wait a minute! when we are at bat, are we supposed to toss balls up in the air and hit grounders to the other team? I'm so confused!" Students have the ability to tell the difference between what a coach does while teaching skills during a drill and what is actually done during a dive.

Second, there are more important and viable solutions to a CESA. These are preventative measures and they should be stressed way more than doing a CESA. Think of it this way: the best CESA is the one you never have to make. Gas management, buddy skills and situational awareness are so much more safe and effective.

As I said in an earlier post, not one of those is a viable solution to a situation that would require a CESA. They should prevent the CESA situation from developing, but if that situation develops despite that training, they are of no use then. All of those should be taught anyway, and, believe it or not, it is possible to teach those skills and still teach a CESA so that students know what to do if that situation develops despite their training.

Finally, these multiple ascents (sometimes with multiple classes) puts instructors at risk.

No question about it, which is why I wonder you didn't answer my other questions about this:
1. There is no need to do 8 CESA's on a dive. You can spread them out over several dives.
2. My first point really doesn't matter in this regard because if you examine standards carefully, you will see that multiple ascents and descents are required anyway. CESA ascents are a drop in the proverbial bucket. For example, does NASE also do away with the alternate air ascent for that reason?

We had a recent thread in the Instructor to Instructor forum after an accident in a quarry that led to thoughts about the requirements for students supervision in low visibility training areas. A careful reading of the standards shows that an instructor has to do a boatload of ascents and descents if every standard is met carefully. So do the students.

How does NASE deal with those?

 

[The Chairman]

Scuba instruction is really a coaching situation. When teaching skills, the coach regularly and routinely does things that are not game-like, and players know that.

You mean like act in an unsportsmanlike manner? What does THAT teach the player? How about if the coach is constantly breaking the rules... like he clips players instead of blocking cleanly. What does THAT teach the player? To further your analogy, the fielding practice with the fungo bat sounds like pool practice to me. However, I treat every dive as a scrimmage/game. When we are in OW then OW rules apply. Physics and physiology are not suspended during this phase of the program and so we dive conservatively and always use best practices for diving: Plan your dive using the three limits. Do a safety check before we splash. Dive your plan honoring those limits. Do a five minute safety stop followed by a final slow ascent. Do a reasonable surface interval before you dive again. When the game begins, the coach should stop fielding practice and let them play. If you taught them well, they don't need you to interrupt their game with even more fielding practice. You're there to supervise and to give guidance along the way. Sure, send a play in by all means. Just don't break the rules while doing it. Spend all the time you need in the pool before you head to open water so that your students are prepared to play the game and not just do more fielding practice once you get there.

1. There is no need to do 8 CESA's on a dive. You can spread them out over several dives.

There is no need to do any CESA on any OW dive unless you screwed up. Planning, awareness and buddy skills obviate the need for that and are far better skills for your students to practice in OW. It's obvious that we disagree about the necessity, efficacy and safety of this skill. It's obvious that we disagree that certification dives should be as close to post certification dives as possible.

2. My first point really doesn't matter in this regard because if you examine standards carefully, you will see that multiple ascents and descents are required anyway. CESA ascents are a drop in the proverbial bucket. For example, does NASE also do away with the alternate air ascent for that reason?

Multiple ascents are NOT required and are counter productive. As an instructor, you should be able to plan your class in such a way as to avoid this and to constantly encourage safe diving habits through out. The biggest fallacy out there is that instructors should have COMPLETE control over each and every student. That's why we see instructors planting their students on the sea floor. What does the student learn with this? More importantly won't DON'T the students learn from this? They don't learn control. Instead, they rely on the instructor to determine their next move and often, quite often, we find the instructor pushing or pulling them into place. The best way to control your students is to teach them how to control themselves. I do this by getting them off of their knees and neutral during the entire class, even in the pool. Once your students have mastered trim and buoyancy, everything else is cake. Yummy carrot cake at that.

 

[boulderjohn]

You mean like act in an unsportsmanlike manner? What does THAT teach the player? How about if the coach is constantly breaking the rules... like he clips players instead of blocking cleanly. What does THAT teach the player?

I am not sure, but that may set the all time ScubaBoard record for a straw man argument. I gave you a clear example of what I was talking about, and you invent a totally different point to attack. I would have thought such an absurdity would have been beneath you.

To further your analogy, the fielding practice with the fungo bat sounds like pool practice to me.

The analogy is perfect. In practice sessions, the coach both teaches skills and evaluates them. In an OW certification dive, we have both skill evaluation that requires the instructor to do a lot of things that don't happen on a dive, and we have a tour portion in which the student and the instructor perform a dive in a dive-like manner.

However, I treat every dive as a scrimmage/game.

I see--you never do anything in an OW certification dive that you don't do on a regular dive. I get it. So if you and I ever dive together, at some point you will come up to me and tell me to remove my mask and put it back on. You will have me do an air sharing drill with someone while you watch. Good to know so I can be ready and not startled.

There is no need to do any CESA on any OW dive unless you screwed up.

Another straw man. I was obviously talking about the requrement to do CESAs in a certification dive, not a regular dive.

Multiple ascents are NOT required and are counter productive.

Look at the WRSTC standards and tell me how they can be avoided. I tried to do it in the thread in Instructor to Instructor, and neither I not anyone else could see how. Perhaps you should have joined the conversation to show us the way.

The biggest fallacy out there is that instructors should have COMPLETE control over each and every student.

Tell that to the instructor/shop owner in Virginia who lost a diver this summer and subsequently was expelled from his agency, lost his shop, and is being sued out the wazoo.

That's why we see instructors planting their students on the sea floor. What does the student learn with this? More importantly won't DON'T the students learn from this? They don't learn control. Instead, they rely on the instructor to determine their next move and often, quite often, we find the instructor pushing or pulling them into place. The best way to control your students is to teach them how to control themselves. I do this by getting them off of their knees and neutral during the entire class, even in the pool. Once your students have mastered trim and buoyancy, everything else is cake. Yummy carrot cake at that.

Another straw man. You are really into them today. Why not respond to the things I say rather than things that have nothing to do with what I said?

Speaking of things I say...

Let me ask for a third time: Does NASE include an air sharing ascent, and, if so, how do you deal with the fact that this requires an instructor bounce dive and is not a part of a normal OW dive?

 

[The Chairman]

I am not sure, but that may set the all time ScubaBoard record for a straw man argument.

John, I am not debating you. I am not trying to present an argument to win a verbal battle here. IOW, there is no "strawman"... just my perspective. You can accept or reject my perspective, but calling it a strawman indicates a rather adversarial discussion and that's not what I am about. I am not asking you to change one whit, so let's ratchet down the hostility.

I gave you a clear example of what I was talking about, and you invent a totally different point to attack.

Actually, I drew it to it's logical conclusion and it wasn't an attack. When you are on the practice field (the pool), it's appropriate to do multiple ascents over and over until they can be done correctly and repeated correctly. The coach might blow up on the practice field and draw no foul. Once the game has started (OW), then the rules MUST be followed. If the coach blows up then he's likely to get penalized. It's true for diving and as I pointed out earlier, the more you tempt fate by diving in a manner inconsistent with safe diving practices, the more likely that fate will find you and penalize you. Ascents are done at 60fpm or better and that's simply not a good thing to do over and over again.

I get it. So if you and I ever dive together, at some point you will come up to me and tell me to remove my mask and put it back on. You will have me do an air sharing drill with someone while you watch. Good to know so I can be ready and not startled.

Apparently you DON'T get it. I watch my students clear their masks during the dive AS THEY NEED IT. I do teach my students to use their safety stops to practice drills, so we might do something at this point. Our dives are simply that: DIVES. I see instructors hurrying up with doing the serial skills that they MUST see done in OW and smile. I got all that done in the pool. Now I want to see that my students are competent divers. That means that they not only can accomplish the skill but they know when to initiate that skill. You ask them to hover for 60 seconds... I expect them to remain neutral and trim during the entire dive. You ask them to clear their mask... I expect them to maintain a clear mask during the entire dive. Again, like a good coach, I might send in a play from the sidelines> "You're out of air!", "Your mask got kicked off" or the like, but I will not ask them to dive in a manner that is inconsistent with basic diver safety, nor will I demonstrate poor behavior to them.

Look at the WRSTC standards and tell me how they can be avoided.

I don't belong to the WRSTC. I don't even have my students (horrors) wearing snorkels during their training unless we are actually doing free dives.

Let me ask for a third time: Does NASE include an air sharing ascent, and, if so, how do you deal with the fact that this requires an instructor bounce dive and is not a part of a normal OW dive?

Let me answer for a second time, and I'll even quote myself:

Here's an example. I never give a warning for an out of air situation. At the end of a dive, I point to a buddy and signal to them that they are OOA. They have to find and signal to their buddy their situation. I then expect their buddy to respond appropriately, do a full five minute safety stop (they had better be checking their gas before and during) and then do a safe ascent. I'll reverse that on the subsequent dive. Mind you, they've already perfected their technique in the pool, so now it's their time to show their stuff. One dive: One ascent. No mixed signals about bounce dives. Their training and your example as an instructor follows the best practices for diving on every OW dive.

John, as I have stated before: this is how I teach. I find that it's best for my students and me. You don't have to teach the same way I do. You certainly don't have to be angry that I don't teach the way you do. I see my instructional methodology as being holistic in it's approach. That certainly does not mean I feel I have to be assholisitic about it. I just do it differently.

 

[Thalassamania]

It seems to me that making students do a CESA on every ascent is training students to go to the "bolt to the surface" response as a first choice. Maybe that was reasonable in the days of J-valves that could prove to be in the wrong position, but it is not reasonable now.

No, I don't see it that way. Making sure that students know that a CESA is an option, and an easy one at that, that keeps the student's level of arousal low. Think about it this way: if a six foot tall student is diving in four feet of water, what is their level of arousal? Rather minimal, no? Such a student, in such a situation, knows that he can comfortably stand up and breathe and thus does not need to rush for the surface at every little disturbance. Now, let's move that same student to a significant depth. The student's level of arousal goes way up ... why?

It is his level of arousal that leads to a "bolt," as opposed to solo problem solving; waiting for, or seeking buddy assistance; or performing a CONTROLLED ESA. Most of what I see as effective diver training has both a significant component of lowering a student's level of arousal, as well as a purpose of inculcating a specific set of manipulative skills or responses.

I don't have your experience, DCBC, but I have over a thousand dives in many parts of the world. I have YET to see anybody have to do a CESA. I have yet to see anybody completely out of gas, including tourist divers -- low, yes, and they signal the DM and share, but not OUT. This is true in warm water, and in cold water.

Again, you're focused on emergency ascent training as solely a solution to a single issue: OAA. Most "bolts" that I have seen, read reports of, or been told about, rarely have an OOA component, and when they do they usually feature a failed air sharing event along the way. Much more of a problem is a mask full of water, a sip of water past the glottis, etc. Students with confidence in their ability to problem solve underwater when effective OOA and with confidence that they are able to reach the surface even after committing a significant amount of time to problem solving, as divers who are going to be able to handle most all of what may get thrown at them. Students who KNOW that they can't hold their breath more than a few seconds and who have no confidence in their ability to safely reach the surface with a CESA are divers who are no able to solo problem solve, fail, and then shift to looking for a buddy assist ... they will "bolt" immediately.

I think one of the hardest things we run into in training divers is to extinguish the immediate rush to the surface as a response to problems. The last thing on earth I want to do is train it INTO somebody.

While it may seem counter intuitive, in my experience, conducting many, many ESEs (of different types) while not focusing on them as a separate stand-alone skill, brings about the result that I am looking for, while doing a single CESE exercise, with great fuss and focus, may well have the effect that you describe of encouraging a direct rush to the surface ... I don't know, I've never trained students that way.

It has been my experience that buddy teams of basic divers are seldom found within touching distance at all times. This can be complicated by poor visibility or by diving with an underwater photographer; you turn around and he's gone...

...

As you're aware, an emergency ascent can be required anytime you have a problem and your buddy isn't visible (or too far or deep to be a viable option). It can be needed as a result of equipment malfunction (regardless of how much gas is in the cylinder). I have previously related my experiences of OOA (both experienced by me and that I've witnessed), so the fact that you haven't experienced it yourself doesn't make the skill something that's unnecessary and shouldn't be taught. A good number of diver certification agencies require CESA as a requirement for certification. Moreover that this skill be 'mastered.' To do so usually requires a number of repetitions.

I can't recall being OOA and having to make a CESA. I have been OOA and always been able to solve the issue in either a solo or buddy dependent fashion. But that does not obviate the comfort and peace of mind that comes from the absolute, rock solid knowledge that I could, if need be, perform a CESE at 60 fpm from any depth that I would dive a "recreational rig" to.

For me, it has become a huge student confidence builder. Knowing that you're diving within a 'safe diving envelope of the surface' isn't a bad thing. I don't experience the same problems that you've described. My students know that they can make the surface and because of this, they will first look for their Buddy. There is no reason to react by streaking to the surface. Being able to pause and think is the key to surviving any diving emergency. In this case, the advantage is in knowing you can make the surface. The training also involves the need for the student to stop at his safety stop on each dive. The student knows that they must make a 'controlled ascent.' This too is a vital factor in emergency ascent training and requires a certain frame-of-mind. For this to be ingrained, it can't be accomplished with one ascent. How can mastery be achieved with one attempt?

Exactly what I am staying.

I don't think you correct that by teaching a CESA . . . you correct that by teaching buddy skills. ...

You correct them by teaching solo skills, and buddy skills as well as by providing the student with the knowledge that they are capable of performing a CESA after they have attempted and failed solo problem solving and buddy problem solving (we even have a half-joking hand signal for, "let's buddy-brain").

Teaching a dubious emergency procedure to make up for poor planning, poor monitoring, poor situational awareness and poor buddy skills doesn't seem like the right answer to me.

Nothing dubious about it. Tried and true, well tested and well used when well taught. But you are right, even at it's best, a CESA is not a way to make up for poor planning, poor monitoring, poor situational awareness and poor buddy skills. It is not an "either or," it is a "both."

 

[DaleC]

No, I don't see it that way. Making sure that students know that a CESA is an option, and an easy one at that, that keeps the student's level of arousal low. Think about it this way: if a six foot tall student is diving in four feet of water, what is their level of arousal? Rather minimal, no? Such a student, in such a situation, knows that he can comfortably stand up and breathe and thus does not need to rush for the surface at every little disturbance. Now, let's move that same student to a significant depth. The student's level of arousal goes way up ... why?

It is his level of arousal that leads to a "bolt," as opposed to solo problem solving; waiting for, or seeking buddy assistance; or performing a CONTROLLED ESA. Most of what I see as effective diver training has both a significant component of lowering a student's level of arousal, as well as a purpose of inculcating a specific set of manipulative skills or responses.
Again, you're focused on emergency ascent training as solely a solution to a single issue: OAA. Most "bolts" that I have seen, read reports of, or been told about, rarely have an OOA component, and when they do they usually feature a failed air sharing event along the way. Much more of a problem is a mask full of water, a sip of water past the glottis, etc. Students with confidence in their ability to problem solve underwater when effective OOA and with confidence that they are able to reach the surface even after committing a significant amount of time to problem solving, as divers who are going to be able to handle most all of what may get thrown at them. Students who KNOW that they can't hold their breath more than a few seconds and who have no confidence in their ability to safely reach the surface with a CESA are divers who are no able to solo problem solve, fail, and then shift to looking for a buddy assist ... they will "bolt" immediately.
While it may seem counter intuitive, in my experience, conducting many, many ESEs (of different types) while not focusing on them as a separate stand-alone skill, brings about the result that I am looking for, while doing a single CESE exercise, with great fuss and focus, may well have the effect that you describe of encouraging a direct rush to the surface ... I don't know, I've never trained students that way.
I can't recall being OOA and having to make a CESA. I have been OOA and always been able to solve the issue in either a solo or buddy dependent fashion. But that does not obviate the comfort and peace of mind that comes from the absolute, rock solid knowledge that I could, if need be, perform a CESE at 60 fpm from any depth that I would dive a "recreational rig" to.

I wanted to quote this because it is exactly my line of reasoning as well. Learning, and being competent in a CESA is just one more tool in the box. The more tools I have, the more comfortable I am in my ability to solve problems. It doesn't mean I default to using my sledge hammer to drive finishing nails.

To use an analogy:

Being able to perform an emergency tracheotomy is one method an ER doctor has of dealing with a medical OOA situation. It is extreme and not something that doctor would default to routinely, but it is part of the toolbox they are equipped with through training.
There are other tools:
Prevention
Education
Positioning
O2 therapy
Suctioning
Drug therapy
Intubation

Imagine that same doctor attending a school that no longer believed surgical intervention was "optimal" so they stopped teaching it. That doctor would enter the ER with one less tool to deal with the OOA patient and would probably experience increased stress because they did not have that solution to fall back upon when the less invasive ones failed to resolve the situation.



Like the CESA, a similar situation has occurred in CPR training in which the need to do a pulse check is no longer required. The training agency has decided that teaching people to take a pulse is too difficult, and the advent of AED's makes it unnecessary, so they have dropped it from the training syllabus.

What the agency has done is simply to dumb down the course so a broader audience can successfully achieve a lower level of training (sound familiar). Their belief is that it is better to have more (lesser trained) first responders than less (better trained) responders. They probably have some statistics to back that up but I still can't wrap my head around the fact that someone can feel competent in emergency resuscitation without knowing how to take a pulse.

The only saving grace in that example is that CPR training changes every few years regardless and there is a chance they may eventually reverse that trend.

But, that's just me. I feel more confident having skills than not, and work towards acquiring and retaining them.

 

[endurodog]

I have to say that the middle part of this thread was a bit obscure and people were dancing around, not saying what they really wanted to but the last few pages have been a great discusion that I enjoyed following. I thought opinions were given on different training and I didn't see it as an attack, and I've seen attacks on here. Great points by many of the posters with some good back and forth.

 

[The Chairman]

I can't recall being OOA and having to make a CESA.

This is so true. Why is that? A CESA is a sign of multiple failures on the part of the diver in regards to gas and buddy management. You have to be both out of air and out of buddy for this to be a desirable option. The training my students get in the pool in regard to a CESA will more than sufficient for this, since it is harder to do there. What's more important is that they learn to maintain buddy contact, and that should be highlighted far more than doing a CESA. In fact, for a properly trained diver, losing a buddy should be as rare as running out of air and their reaction in that scenario should be to abort the dive. People who dive sans a buddy should be trained to bring along redundant air. This includes both hunters and photographers.

The problem is that too many divers are being taught without proper buddy skills. I want a diver I can count on right out of the pool. Buddy, depth, time and gas management are what I need to see during the OW portion of our class. In the traditional class, the student's attention is NOT on their buddy, but on their instructor. It's more a case of follow the leader, not take care of your buddy. Talk about mixed signals. Sure, my students dive not only in buddy pairs but also as a group and I will act as a guide just as I would do anyway. There are lots of critters they wouldn't notice or recognize if I didn't point them out. Still, their evaluation depends on their maintenance of the three limits as well as their buddy. At the end of each dive, they each grade each other on their buddy skills, they review their limits and they calculate their SAC. Why? Because this is how I want them to do it in real life.

 

[AaronRiot]

Not many newbies have weighed in here so perhaps I can offer an opinion from a more or less recent trainee.

First off, I had (IMO) an excellent instructor who took the time to go above and beyond with some particulars they felt were important to focus on. Buddy skills and buoyancy included.

One section that troubled me was the CESA bit. I had a terrible time with the horizontal one in the pool because it felt nothing like what I assumed an actual CESA ascent would feel like. I was already quite proficient at swimming just under the surface of a pool and felt like the experience taught me very little if anything at all. When we did our OW CESA in the quarry it happened very quickly and was done. I didn't really do anything. I just hummed while my instructor took me to the surface. I made it up just fine, as did the rest of the group. I don't really feel like it taught me all that much though because the only control I had throughout the whole exercise was that of my humming.

Jump to a summer trip to Coz. There were a few times that I looked up to the surface 60ft above me and wondered if I would make it up if the sh*t hit the fan and all other options were exhausted. I had no idea and to be honest I wished that I had a little more practice with that last ditch effort tool called the CESA.

When I got home I had the opportunity to do some shallow (~25ft max) lake dives. I practiced the CESA on quite a few of those ascents. I practiced after a full breath, after a half breath, and after a full exhale. I practiced doffing my gear and then ascending as well.

I learned a lot from those dives. I gained the confidence to take my time to get to the surface even when short on breath. I gained the experience of monitoring my ascent rate while having little air in my lungs. I learned to recognize the feelings associated with being in this type of emergency and that has given me confidence by knowing I won't panic if, God forbid, I ever found myself in a real-world emergency situation that required the skill.

I doubt I'll ever need to CESA, for real. I know well enough that I need to focus on buddy skills, gas management, and redundancy. With that being said, I also have a tool in my box that will get me to the surface in a recreational setting if all else fails. I like that and I like that I know I would feel confident deploying that tool if I need to.

Personally, and among many other things, I wish more time was spent in OW class on this subject.

 

[SeaCobra]

I know I am joining the party a little late, but can someone please tell me when conducting CESA's became classified as bounce dives?