Tank failing Visual, shop condemned the tank?

[lowviz]

Here is my take. The annual cylinder inspection program, as bastardized as it is, is a voluntary scuba industry standard. ...//... As such, when inspecting a cylinder there is no basis for an inspector condemning a cylinder by over stamping the DOT markings WITHOUT the cylinder owner's permission.

I can live with that, such will be how I inspect. I see no need for me to probe any further on this. Thank you.

 

[OkByMe]

There are some people making this so hard, when it is not. Unless the LDS has a "RIN" facility doing the visuals it can't do squat. PCI is nothing more than a training agency which took the CGA recommendation regarding cylinder visual inspections to the DOT, and adopted them as their own. There are at least 2 reasons why they did this. One is that the testing and research was born by the CGA. Two is that any procedure which differs from what is mandated by federal regulation puts them in a procecutable environment, and they have liability for the consequences. Three is that by hitch-hiking on the back of regulation keeps them "up to date" and mitigates any changes as not being of their own volition but as by responding to regulation changes.

Here is the VIS requirements as adopted: CFR 49/180.205.F

(1) The visual inspection must be performed in accordance with the following CGA Pamphlets: C-6 for steel and nickel cylinders (IBR, see § 171.7 of this subchapter); C-6.1 for seamless aluminum cylinders (IBR, see § 171.7 of this subchapter); C-6.2 for fiber reinforced composite special permit cylinders (IBR, see § 171.7 of this subchapter); C-6.3 for low pressure aluminum cylinders (IBR, see § 171.7 of this subchapter); C-8 for DOT 3HT cylinders (IBR, see § 171.7 of this subchapter); and C-13 for DOT 8 series cylinders (IBR, see § 171.7 of this subchapter).

Here is an excerpt as to who can do the "condemnation" as a result of inspection: CFR 49/180.205.B

(b)Persons performing requalification functions. No person may represent that a repair or requalification of a cylinder has been performed in accordance with the requirements in this subchapter unless that person holds a current approval issued under the procedural requirements prescribed in subpart I of part 107 of this chapter. No person may mark a cylinder with a RIN and a requalification date or otherwise represent that a DOT specification or special permit cylinder has been requalified unless all applicable requirements of this subpart have been met. A person who requalifies cylinders must maintain the records prescribed in § 180.215 at each location at which it inspects, tests, or marks cylinders.

Here is the actual condemnation rules: CFR 49/180.205.F

(2) When a cylinder must be condemned, the requalifier must -
(i) Stamp a series of X's over the DOT specification number and the marked pressure or stamp “CONDEMNED” on the shoulder, top head, or neck using a steel stamp;
(ii) For composite cylinders, securely affix to the cylinder a label with the word “CONDEMNED” overcoated with epoxy near, but not obscuring, the original cylinder manufacturer's label; or
(iii) As an alternative to the stamping or labeling as described in this paragraph (i)(2), at the direction of the owner, the requalifier may render the cylinder incapable of holding pressure.
(3) No person may remove or obliterate the “CONDEMNED” marking. In addition, the requalifier must notify the cylinder owner, in writing, that the cylinder is condemned and may not be filled with hazardous material and offered for transportation in commerce where use of a specification packaging is required.

Looks like I ended up doing the legwork anyway.

 

[tursiops]

I think you will find that there is no place in the industry-voluntary VIP process for condemning, only for Pass or Fail, and Fail simply means a written statement why, and no sticker. I see no reason why an individual would EVER give permission for a minimally-trained LDS shop monkey to XXX overstamp! And if a shop demanded that right before doing a visual, well, that's the last time I'd step foot in that shop. and the name of that shop would be widely broadcast.

What agency is it that is confusing you? Why do you think you -- a lowly tank inspector -- can destroy someone's tank? And make no bones about it.....once you XXX the markings, that tank's value has gone to near zero, because no one will fill it.

 

[captain]

The hydro shop is a government licensed entity. The are issued an identifier number which is stamped on every tank they test. VIP certified person is not a licensed entity unless he is working under the authority of the licensed entity hence if he isn’t authorized to condemn a tank he can only deem it has passed or failed HIS visual inspection.

 

[Superlyte27]

There are some people making this so hard, when it is not. Unless the LDS has a "RIN" facility doing the visuals it can't do squat. PCI is nothing more than a training agency which took the CGA recommendation regarding cylinder visual inspections to the DOT, and adopted them as their own. There are at least 2 reasons why they did this. One is that the testing and research was born by the CGA. Two is that any procedure which differs from what is mandated by federal regulation puts them in a procecutable environment, and they have liability for the consequences. Three is that by hitch-hiking on the back of regulation keeps them "up to date" and mitigates any changes as not being of their own volition but as by responding to regulation changes.

Here is the VIS requirements as adopted: CFR 49/180.205.F

(1) The visual inspection must be performed in accordance with the following CGA Pamphlets: C-6 for steel and nickel cylinders (IBR, see § 171.7 of this subchapter); C-6.1 for seamless aluminum cylinders (IBR, see § 171.7 of this subchapter); C-6.2 for fiber reinforced composite special permit cylinders (IBR, see § 171.7 of this subchapter); C-6.3 for low pressure aluminum cylinders (IBR, see § 171.7 of this subchapter); C-8 for DOT 3HT cylinders (IBR, see § 171.7 of this subchapter); and C-13 for DOT 8 series cylinders (IBR, see § 171.7 of this subchapter).

Here is an excerpt as to who can do the "condemnation" as a result of inspection: CFR 49/180.205.B

(b)Persons performing requalification functions. No person may represent that a repair or requalification of a cylinder has been performed in accordance with the requirements in this subchapter unless that person holds a current approval issued under the procedural requirements prescribed in subpart I of part 107 of this chapter. No person may mark a cylinder with a RIN and a requalification date or otherwise represent that a DOT specification or special permit cylinder has been requalified unless all applicable requirements of this subpart have been met. A person who requalifies cylinders must maintain the records prescribed in § 180.215 at each location at which it inspects, tests, or marks cylinders.

Here is the actual condemnation rules: CFR 49/180.205.F

(2) When a cylinder must be condemned, the requalifier must -
(i) Stamp a series of X's over the DOT specification number and the marked pressure or stamp “CONDEMNED” on the shoulder, top head, or neck using a steel stamp;
(ii) For composite cylinders, securely affix to the cylinder a label with the word “CONDEMNED” overcoated with epoxy near, but not obscuring, the original cylinder manufacturer's label; or
(iii) As an alternative to the stamping or labeling as described in this paragraph (i)(2), at the direction of the owner, the requalifier may render the cylinder incapable of holding pressure.
(3) No person may remove or obliterate the “CONDEMNED” marking. In addition, the requalifier must notify the cylinder owner, in writing, that the cylinder is condemned and may not be filled with hazardous material and offered for transportation in commerce where use of a specification packaging is required.

Looks like I ended up doing the legwork anyway.

You're reading from the same section that says all cylinders are condemned at 24 years past their manufacture date. That would be Section C

 

[OkByMe]

You're reading from the same section that says all cylinders are condemned at 24 years past their manufacture date. That would be Section C

NOT so: OLD steel and aluminum SCUBA tanks [DOT 3A and 3AA and 3AL] DO NOT have a "shelf life" that is only applicable to this: CFR 49/180.205

(v) For a DOT 3HT cylinder -
(A) The pressure test yields an elastic expansion exceeding the marked rejection elastic expansion (REE) value.
(B) The cylinder shows evidence of denting or bulging.
(C) The cylinder bears a manufacture or an original test date older than twenty-four years or after 4380 pressurizations, whichever occurs first. If a cylinder is refilled, on average, more than once every other day, an accurate record of the number of recharges must be maintained by the cylinder owner or the owner's agent.

 

[NAM001]

In addition as I remember cfr 49 deals with commercial cylendars. I believe that it also says that any vessels that are not under cfr 49 must still comply with section C which has the c1 c2 c3 etc. the cfr in general is not writtten for scuba it is written for all pressure holding vessels in comercial use. Scuba tanks are not for commercial use (in general) A lot of heated discussions in the past deals with this distinction of comercial and non commercial. The same goes for aspects of commercial vs recreational transportation of tanks. Some argue that cfr 49 is all moot because there is no hazardous material nvolved. Presure is the hazardous component. In the case of PCI PSI there are two parts of this the professional cylendar and professional scuba inspections. There are many arguments as to whether you can fill an out of hydro date cylendar. as a commercial business no but as a private person yes. can you commercially transport a filled commercial cylendar that is out of hydro date. yes but you can not fill it again untill it is requalified. Yes there is a difference between requalifiers and inspectors. You can re vis a tank after a fail or reject but you can not re test a cylendar after it fails a hydro test. One guy has a federal license to operate and the other has a cert of training completed. different levels have different authorities and limitations. commercial vessels still have to comply with section c as well as those vessels that are not in commercial use. the remainder of cfr 49 for non commercial use is moot. Then lets not forget the mandates of liability carriers on the businesses. their protective cusions may not have anything to do with the cfr's but are in force in the event of an incident but within the carriers jurisdiction. VIS is a tough thing to deal with as there is no accountability for the quality of the inspection. there is no ID of the inspector and there fore you can go to kinko's and print of stickers by the hundreds on bumper sticker material and no one knows the difference. All sorts of things are printed on stickers like complies with scuba standards. Well for those that ask for certs on this ,,,,, show me the scuba standards and what force of law they carry. The performance of VIS's are as crazy as those saying that any tank over X years old is unfit to refill whether requalified or not. Okbymes comment about shelf life is proof of that regarding 3a or 3aa tanks in regards to shelf life. Just because you are in complliance with osha or the manufacturers recommendations does not mean you are good with the cfr's The opposite is also true. CFR's rule but have to be read right for you application.

 

[TrimixToo]

I am not a lawyer but I did watch Perry Mason. Rendering a cylinder incapable of hold air without the owner's permission would not be a criminal (e.g. illegal) because of the intent. It would however, be a civil matter (e.g. liable).

^^^ This. It's likely a tort, not a crime. That said, an attorney I am not.

 

[JackD342]

Here is the PSI/PCI Visual Inspection Release Form that they encourage their testers to utilize in order to correctly remove condemned cylinders from service.
PSI-PCI - Visual Inspection Release Form

 

[rjack321]

No

I repeat my question: Can a tank be permanently taken out of service (without criminal or civil exposure) by a qualified VIP inspector by stamping X's over the DOT specification number without the owner's approval? (Assuming that the cylinder exhibits internal damage that is clearly in excess of the allowable maximum)

Not unless they happen to be an authorized hydrotesting facility as well.

Taking a VIP course from PSI, TDI, UTD, ANDI or anyone else does not authorize you to deface or damage anyone's property, cylinders, regs, cars, trucks, or houses. Without explicit authorization from the owner you are vandalizing their stuff.