Tank failing Visual, shop condemned the tank?

[Kharon]

@Kharon

As an inspector, I diligently follow both the law and agency guidelines. Please show me where this is illegal and I will immediately vacate the 'right' to condemn a tank.

What is illegal is rendering the tank incapable of holding air (destroying it) without the owner's permission.

As per: PSI - PCI Cylinder Facts and Fiction

PSI - PCI Cylinder Facts and Fiction

FICTION: A condemned cylinder must be rendered incapable of holding air by drilling a hole in the sidewall or by destroying the neck threads.
FACT: 49CFR180.207 prescribes the procedures for the condemnation of cylinders. They are to be condemned by stamping a series of “X”s over the DOT specification number and the service pressure or by stamping “CONDEMNED” on the cylinder shoulder. Only at the direction of the cylinder owner may the requalifier render the cylinder incapable of holding pressure. Additionally, the cylinder owner must be notified IN WRITING that the cylinder is condemned and may not be filled with a hazardous material.

Cylinders failing hydrostatic retest or visual inspection cannot be returned to their owner without being condemned. However, those facilities that destroy your cylinder neck threads or drill a hole in the sidewall WITHOUT YOUR PERMISSION are in violation of the law.

Additionally, PSI-PCI provide for getting a second opinion on visual inspection. Impossible to do that if the tank has been destroyed. Directly from the PSI-PCI website: PSI-PCI - Cylinder Inspections and Ethics

Each day we assist inspectors with second opinions and related questions to ensure proper inspections and tests are being conducted.

PSI-PCI is aware of cylinders that are condemned by persons citing a myriad of unfounded reasons unaware there are Federal requirements for cylinder condemnation. Condemning cylinders for the sake of a sale (or simply ignorance) is unethical and constitutes nothing less than fraud.

What is it about destroying another's property without their permission is illegal that you don't understand? And you say you are a newbie inspector. You consider yourself perfect? Could never make a mistake? Be overzelous in condemning a tank?

Well, newbie, I am grateful that you will never see any of my tanks, nor will I ever see any more of your arrogant posts. ===> Ignore

 

[lowviz]

You CAN NOT LEGALLY condemn nor can you render it unfit for refilling. If you do so you are destroying another's property and are legally liable for that action. I would sue your a$$ off.

Note that you said: "You CAN NOT LEGALLY condemn nor can you render it unfit for refilling." You reference two actions, condemning and rendering it unfit for refilling. Once you realized your mistake, you backpedaled to:

What is illegal is rendering the tank incapable of holding air (destroying it) without the owner's permission.

What happened to the 'condemning' part?

What is it about destroying another's property without their permission is illegal that you don't understand? And you say you are a newbie inspector. You consider yourself perfect? Could never make a mistake? Be overzelous in condemning a tank?

If I considered myself perfect, I wouldn't be asking all these questions.

 

[caydiver]

Just curious, does anyone think writing with magic marker was destroying the tank or rendering it incapable of holding air??? There is no doubt that any number of products will easily, cheaply and effectively remove even permanent marker.

 

[Scared Silly]

I am not a lawyer but I did watch Perry Mason. Rendering a cylinder incapable of hold air without the owner's permission would not be a criminal (e.g. illegal) because of the intent. It would however, be a civil matter (e.g. liable).

 

[NAM001]

https://www.phmsa.dot.gov/approvals...e-serve/offer/SP12479.pdf/offerserver/SP12479

i still am not seeing where in the special permit that PSI/PCI is the only approved training agency. it specifically references the CGA standards for the annual inspection.

It may be in a format that,,,,,,,,if not covered by the CFR then manufacturers standards would apply. At that point it could be the manufacturer that says only PCI meets their standards of VIS. The links I am sure are subject to argument. Perhaps It is in the Exception permit cert for that tank. Either way It involves tanks I do not deal with. Again PSI has their processes developed to cover you legally.

 

[NAM001]

Just curious, does anyone think writing with magic marker was destroying the tank or rendering it incapable of holding air??? There is no doubt that any number of products will easily, cheaply and effectively remove even permanent marker.

I think that they know they fcan not legally disable a tank with out the customers permission. the next best thing is to mark the tank to disuade other filing stations from filing the tank unknowingly. Its like home door locks. It will not keep the hard criminals out of your house, they only keep honest people honest.

 

[lowviz]

So now, the question is this:

Can a tank be permanently taken out of service (without criminal or civil exposure) by a qualified VIP inspector by stamping X's over the DOT specification number without the owner's approval? (Assuming that the cylinder exhibits internal damage that is clearly in excess of the allowable maximum)

I understand that damaging the tank in any other way (without the owner's approval) would be improper.

No, no, and NO!!!. You can accept and apply a sticker, you can reject and return the tank as it was given to you. You CAN NOT LEGALLY condemn nor can you render it unfit for refilling. If you do so you are destroying another's property and are legally liable for that action. I would sue your a$$ off.

So according to the above post, I can neither stamp over the DOT number nor permanently damage the cylinder by making it unable to be refilled.

I repeat my question: Can a tank be permanently taken out of service (without criminal or civil exposure) by a qualified VIP inspector by stamping X's over the DOT specification number without the owner's approval? (Assuming that the cylinder exhibits internal damage that is clearly in excess of the allowable maximum)

 

[tursiops]

I repeat my question: Can a tank be permanently taken out of service (without criminal or civil exposure) by a qualified VIP inspector by stamping X's over the DOT specification number without the owner's approval?

Each time someone says "No," you ask for a citation backing that answer up. If someone were to say "Yes" (not likely!) would you also ask for a citation? It sounds like you are just playing gotcha.

 

[lowviz]

@tursiops Good observation. It sounds that way to you because the whole VIP situation may indeed be a game of gotcha due to the 'Condemn' thing. I only have one agency's view on this and am trying to get it all straight in my head. Knowledgeable posters here are my only good resource for this.

If nobody will say "yes" to the question: can I stamp out the DOT number (without damaging the tank) then the whole idea of condemning a cylinder has no business in the VIP process, no?

Maybe we should only be able to Pass or Reject without prejudice.

 

[Scared Silly]

Here is my take. The annual cylinder inspection program, as bastardized as it is, is a voluntary scuba industry standard. It has no basis within the CFRs (i.e. the CFRs do not reference it), CGA, OSHA, etc.. As such, when inspecting a cylinder there is no basis for an inspector condemning a cylinder by over stamping the DOT markings WITHOUT the cylinder owner's permission. Should an inspector be able to condemn a cylinder? Yes as it does have value to the community. The above applies solely to annual inspections.