Taken the classes but having hard time getting final cert dives :(

[Dive-aholic]

No business wants to lose a student to a competitor. After all, that's lost income (immediate AND future). This Is Not Lost Income.Why Was It Said?I Guess I Don'T Get It?Sorry..........................Timmay...............................................

The point you're missing is that if Scuba Sciences had worked with the OP to get him and his S.O. certified, even with a different shop, then the OP might be willing to spend more money at Scuba Sciences. As it appears now, Scuba Sciences has lost the OP's future business because of this experience.

Have you ever seen the movie Miracle on 42nd St. (I may have the street wrong), with Natalie Wood in it when she was a little girl? Crazy Santa was telling kids that Macy's didn't carry what they wanted and telling them what store they could get it at. That created more business for Macy's. People felt better about shopping Macy's when Macy's was sending them to the competition to get what they didn't carry. Okay, it's only a movie, but a lot of people feel that way. Bend over backwards to help me out and I'll do the same. I used to compare gear prices when I first started buying gear. I don't anymore. The shops I deal with have given me great deals and bent over backwards to get me those deals. Now I just buy gear from them because they earned my business. Scuba Sciences doesn't seem to be earning their business.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Haven't seen this much discussion on the AZ forum in quite awhile........would rather be diving though.

Karen

Hey... aren't you supposed to be in Tulum keeping an eye on my buddy!

 

[Karen Cleveland]

Hey... aren't you supposed to be in Tulum keeping an eye on my buddy!

John is. I am working, wasn't able to get off to go this time. Something about it being a project risk.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

The point you're missing is that if Scuba Sciences had worked with the OP to get him and his S.O. certified, even with a different shop, then the OP might be willing to spend more money at Scuba Sciences. As it appears now, Scuba Sciences has lost the OP's future business because of this experience.

Have you ever seen the movie Miracle on 42nd St. (I may have the street wrong), with Natalie Wood in it when she was a little girl? Crazy Santa was telling kids that Macy's didn't carry what they wanted and telling them what store they could get it at. That created more business for Macy's. People felt better about shopping Macy's when Macy's was sending them to the competition to get what they didn't carry.

As you may know, this is SOP at our shop. If we don't have something a customer wants then we tell them who does. Often we will call one of the other shops to make sure that they have what the customer is looking for in stock. In fact, there are many shops in town that we work with... we help them when they are in a bind and vice versa. We look at it like this... the more people that are diving... no matter what shop they are diving with... the better it is for us. Heck... we were even glad when Sports Chalet came to town. Places like that just help to increase the overall interest in our sport. If we do our job right, they will eventually find their way to our place and hopefully find a home with us.

We even send folks over to Scuba Sciences on occasion. And I ALWAYS have GREAT things to say about the teaching staff over there. They're a good bunch... some of the most dedicated and talented instructors and DMs in the Valley. Kudos to folks like Karen and John and Karen and Art. Personally, I don't know why some of them stay there... but what the heck.

 

[namabiru]

No business wants to lose a student to a competitor. After all, that's lost income (immediate AND future). This Is Not Lost Income.Why Was It Said?I Guess I Don'T Get It?Sorry..........................Timmay...............................................

That would be me you're picking on. Why is it *not* lost income to lose a student to a competitor? I guess I don't understand *your* line of thought either. It's simple math. If you make a student mad, and they go across the street, and later want to buy some fins, they won't come back to you to spend that $60. Yes? That student will go to another shop, or order them online. That's most people. And yes, I am extreme, where once I get mad that's it. Just like my Dad, I am

Common sense, yo. Bakajanaino? Once you've been burned, you're not likely to go back.

Income was the only way I could rationalise the exclusive nature of SS's business ethic pattern, as I have never run across another shop which implies that other shops are "not as safe" and holds records from students who wish to finish training with another local operator in order to supposedly keep other operators from remaining in business.

Diving, which has been pointed out more than once, is a community sport. The putting down of other divers by a diver is often not well received (or at least the people *I* choose to associate with). Consequently, a dive operator which starts knocking other operators on things where there are no grounds to do so (safety being one), in a typical American rah-rah our school rules you suck spirit, is also not going to be well-received.

Dive shops are like sushi restaurants. If the word starts circulating that one dive shop is dodgy, then people will be hesitant to go there. (which is perhaps happening with SS right now--I've never set foot in the door but I already don't like their business practice and won't go)

 

[shark.byte.usa]

I Feel Like Some Of You Are Losing The Focus Here.Income?Is That All You Care About?

No business wants to lose a student to a competitor. After all, that's lost income (immediate AND future).

Kindof contradictory posts, are you losing the focus here?

But seriously if that is scuba sciences business priority, not giving up students and their potential (short-term) income, which I think it clearly is, FINE but don't try and shroud it under the blanket of "we're the Safest" and we'll make you a "Real Diver" or "Ocean Diver" or hiding behind your restrictive student policies and claiming it's for the good of the student, when clearly is for the good of the shop.

Let's just admit for a second that putting students in AT-PACS(?) during OW classes is a sales tool to sell BC's and NOT for the comfort, fun and good of the student.

Let's just admit that driving all the way to Saguaro Lake instead of the much closer (and better) Lake Pleasant, ensures that you will have zero visability and not bump into any pesky OW classes, a podeum in which to preach the righteousness of not certifying people in the lakes, conditions which almost ensure a student will never want to dive locally, decreasing the probability that a student ever steps foot in another local shop, thus capitalizing on the chances that your bus will have the opportunity to be filled every weekend and your charters which are booked far in advance don't operate at a loss. Once again not for the comfort or fun of the student.

Let's admit that the 10-20% student discount is a farce, that your gear is marked up so that only after the discount has been applied are prices comparable to the average brick-and-mortar RP. Again not for the good of the student.

Let's admit that you are banking on the buck of the ill-informed student, because of the fact that after certification a good majority of students don't continue to dive regularly.

Let's admit that Paul doesnt' put prices on gear in the Metro store to keep people from shopping around.

...I could go on

It's allright you don't have to admit to anything, it's pretty obvious to me, and should be to anyone else with a clue who hasn't drank the "kool-aid". And while I agree with Karen that 1st impressions are hard to overcome, scuba sciences lasting impressions aren't any better.

...They're a good bunch... some of the most dedicated and talented instructors and DMs in the Valley. Kudos to folks like Karen and John and Karen and Art.

Agreed, and after all my disdain for scuba sciences, the business/the shop, I still took my son to James for his OW classes, I never had a second thought about taking him to another instructor. I would have happily plopped down the dough to let my daughter take the Scuba Rangers course with Tina as well, if she had wanted too. It's too bad that some good people, fair trip prices and a good OW course will be overshadowed by a bully of GM and bad business practices. Not even a hot poker in my @s$ could get me to step foot in the Metro location ever again.

...and later want to buy some fins, they won't come back to you to spend that $60

$60 bucks, you obviously haven't shopped at scuba sciences.

-Garrett

 

[booth22]

which is perhaps happening with SS right now--I've never set foot in the door but I already don't like their business practice and won't go

You aren't the only one.

 

[pinkladydi]

I 'm a PADI DM
I've done all my classes at local lakes.
yes the lakes have ZERO vis and your instructor needs to be very diligent to do classes when he can't see you
Yes I've dove Rocky Point, but don't go there without a veteran diver that has dove there before, (extreme tidal exchange) otherwise take the boat trip that has their DM's on board
Yes I've jumped out of an air boat and a helicopter into the salt river on some training dives
Yes I've done shore diving at the river too, ask the local shops if they are having a river clean-up for earth day, they'll do a class on drift diving it's different than Cozumel.
I've used independent instructors for all my certs
I've shopped at almost all the shops in the valley and dove with a few
I have respect for all but the 2 stores ***-sociated with PAUL,
he should be selling wagons as his name indicates,
instead he sell the naive student a bill of goods and has turned more people AWAY from the sport than the movie JAWS ever did.
He has a great location and as you all know, the first rule of retail is location, location, location.
It's difficult to get to the student before he signs up for a class so when you divers talk up the sport be sure to put in your 2cents about what shop to go to
I've read some "odd" info about the sport chalet instructors (corporate rules) that caused me to think thee times before referring some one there.
So as you can see even though I may be as old as your mom, I have a few things under my belt that most divers have never done

 

[Dive-aholic]

yes the lakes have ZERO vis and your instructor needs to be very diligent to do classes when he can't see you

:huh: You haven't been in Lake Pleasant lately. We've been getting 10-20 feet of visibility consistently for over a year now. I was certified in Mexico with 20 feet of visibility. Not much different than Lake Pleasant on one of its better days.

As for the rest of your post...I agree with it.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Not even a hot poker in my @s$ could get me to step foot in the Metro location ever again.

Garrett, you forgot the coke alert! That's hilarious!