Taken the classes but having hard time getting final cert dives :(

[GreenDiverDown]

The lake /no lake thing is a smoke screen!

Scuba Sciences will not assist customers who wish to complete their training with another local shop for purely business related reasons. It is about keeping the dollars in their store... and out of the hands of the competition. It really has nothing to do with the visiblity at the lake.

It is all Paul...

 

[diversteve]

I could not imagine trying to conduct open water certification skills while kneeling on the muck that lies at the bottom of our lakes.

I personally agree with this point, even in a place like Dutch Springs, where it's typically much clearer, they've suspended dive platforms at different depths for certification dives - and they certify a lot of divers at Dutch each year.

Too bad we can't build a platform at Powell. Bit of a drive, but the water's clear...

 

[Dive-aholic]

...As an Instructor, I could not imagine trying to conduct open water certification skills while kneeling on the muck that lies at the bottom of our lakes...

Neither can I. That's why my students learn buoyancy in confined water and skills are done in a neutrally buoyant position above the muck.

... and I want my students to be excited after being diving especially when getting certified. I love it when my students get to see something cool on their certifications, it makes the process of getting certified all worth it...

There are quite a few cool things to see in the lake. You just need to slow down and take the time to look for them.

I personally agree with this point, even in a place like Dutch Springs, where it's typically much clearer, they've suspended dive platforms at different depths for certification dives - and they certify a lot of divers at Dutch each year.

Last time I was at Dutch, the visibility wasn't much better than it's been at Lake Pleasant lately. Platforms are nice. In fact, they now have one at Lake Mead. But they shouldn't be necessary.

 

[KazInAz]

Frankly it doesnt sound easy to do a referral with any agency. They all seem to have their restrictions....its not just Scuba Sciences. Or at least thats what I get out of all this. I've been looking at some certification costs on the web.
Seems certification costs are pretty high even at the lake. I've seen on some local dive shop web sites that lake certification runs between 200-300$. From what I can tell Scuba Sciences certification cost is only 117$.
Anyways...the OP seem to be on their way to resolving their problems with the DO so maybe we can all move on to the business of diving.

 

[scubajcf]

Hi Kaz,

Respectfully, I think you are comparing apples and oranges. The $117 charged by Scuba Sciences appears to be for certification when on a trip. I know at least two of the shops in my previous post include certification as a part of the trip cost. Thus, the effective cost would be $0

For clarification, my previous post with pricing was for lake certification dives only. Classroom and other costs were separate and extra (with the exception of Southwest Scuba).

JCF

 

[Dive-aholic]

Referrals are not difficult at all. In fact, they are quite easy. I've done a few referral certs. As long as I have the training record showing what has been done so far, it's real easy to do a referral.

S. Sciences' $117 only includes gear, certification card, instructor fees. It doesn't include the trip - boat (tanks), transportation. I charge $95 for gear, tanks, dives, certification card, and...well I'm the instructor, so that's what i charge.

The problem is most shops don't spell out all the costs involved in getting Open Water certification. It's all broken down into the individual costs and you only learn about the added costs as you go through the course. If you look at my website, you'll see I've listed the costs involved in the Open Water Diver course page (linked off the courses page). Total cost for Open Water certification through Southwest Scuba will be about $500 per diver. It could be a little less or a lot more, depending on basic gear purchases and where we go for certification.

S. Sciences requires a $602 trip for the certification dives in addition to the $200 class fee, $76.50 text fee, $18 log book fee, plus mask, snorkel, fins, booties. So when it's all added up, the total cost of certification will end up being over $1000 per diver.

 

[scubajcf]

Very simple; This whole universal referral program seems a bit bureaucratic and opportunistic.

Step 1 - Verify level of skill and knowledge (A Prudent Step)
Step 2 - Paperwork (of course)
Step 3 - Proof of skill and knowledge (again, a prudent step)
Step 3.5 - Remediation, if necessary (If the referring instructor did his job, it shouldn't be a difficult step).
Step 4 - Skill evaluation. (I don't think I would want to get in the water with a candidate and not take a look at his skills).
Step 5 - Do the dives (that's why they are there)
Final Step -Certify.

Exact text below:


Accepting Referral Students From Certification Organizations Other Than PADI, you may complete training for referred entry-level students from certification organizations other than PADI by using the following procedures:

1. The Teaching status PADI Instructor receiving the student:
• Reviews the referral document to verify that the student has completed the knowledge and skill development portions of an entry-level scuba course.
• Verifies that the student has completed a water skills assessment (at least a 200 metre/yard swim or 300 metre/yard mask, snorkel, and fin swim and a 10 minute tread/float).
• Verifies that the training completion date listed on the referral document is not older than 12 months.


2. The student completes a PADI Medical Statement, Standard Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding, and Liability Release and Assumption
of Risk Agreement.


3. The receiving Teaching status PADI Instructor ensures that the student successfully completes the entire PADI Scuba Review program (refer to the
Experience Programs Instructor Guide in this Manual) along with the PADI Open Water Diver Final Exam. Remediate the student’s knowledge and skills, as necessary, before any open water training occurs.


4. Use the PADI Skill Evaluation to assess student skills. In addition to the skills listed on the PADI Skill Evaluation Grade Sheet, the student must also demonstrate mastery of the following skills:
• Underwater swim without a mask
• Air depletion exercise
• Air depletion/Alternate Air Source (AAS) combined exercise


5. A student referred from a certification organization other than PADI must complete Open Water Dives One and Two for Scuba Diver certification, or One through
Four for Open Water Diver certification. For instructional consistency, it’s recommended that the receiving instructor/dive center conducting the preassessment and required remediation complete the open water training.


6. Students may be referred any time between Open Water Dive 1 and Open Water Dive 4. Issue a PADI Open Water Diver Referral Record, along with other referral documentation attached when referring students between open water dives. Preassessment and remediation, as necessary, is required before any open water training occurs.


7. The Teaching status PADI Instructor who completes the final open water dive certifies the student. The certifying instructor submits a PADI Positive Identification Card (PIC) envelope to PADI for processing. The certifying instructor retains the student’s referral documents along with a signed Medical Statement, Standard Safe Diving Practices Statement of Understanding and Liability Release and Assumption of Risk Agreement.

 

[Scuba Sciences]

Hi Steve,

If we had a platform it may help. I had to conduct a cert dive at Jules Undersea lodge in Key largo with green water (similar conditions to Saguaro Lake). They had concrete platforms that did keep the vis a little better.

Tina
Scuba Sciences, Inc.

 

[KazInAz]

Rob;

I just wanted to add that as you have no overhead (ie no store front) which enables you to have lower prices than some of the big shops with rent/utilities/inventory. A savings you pass on to your students.
I'm not going to debate though the pros and cons of a store front. Just putting into perspective why you are able to charge less.

 

[Scuba Sciences]

Scuba Sciences will not assist customers who wish to complete their training with another local shop for purely business related reasons. It is about keeping the dollars in their store... and out of the hands of the competition. It really has nothing to do with the visiblity at the lake.

It is all Paul...

You couldn't be farther from the truth with that comment. We conduct a snorkeling activity at the lake during our Basic Ocean Diver training. After completing this activity not one student is exciting about diving at the lakes for their certification training. If I remember right the customer we are currently working things out with wasn't too excited about the lake either.

That's why we went to the trouble to organize trips to Mexico and California with transportation, lodging, meals and beverages, certification fees, c card and use of scuba gear. Our trips try to have an all-inclusive package so there are no surprises during your trip.

Most stores in town charge a separate fee for the certification. We're right in line with that, only our trips include that fee if the student goes with us. Once they are certified, they pay a cheaper price for any trip. The trips include everything listed above.

We've been going round and round about this for days now. Every store is allowed the right to make policies. Our Instructors mutually agreed about this one. After our students complete their Ocean diver course in California, they can dive anywhere. The lakes do not offer the same environment as the Ocean currents, waves, and tides do.

After being in business for over 36 years now, we must be doing something right. The fact of the matter is students have many options to certify, all of which are out there for anyone to see. Most of you have been quoting our website, so I know you see it, as do our customers.

We use Saguaro lake for Expert and Dive Con training, just not for the Basic level. Again, we want them to have a great time on their certifications so they will continue to dive and be active with the sport.

Each store is in business, yes to make money, or we couldn't pay our mortgage. This is what is great about having a choice and living in America. Every Dive Center in the Phoenix area is in business to do what they like and how they like it.

I guess at this point we'll have to agree to disagree and just move on. We're all after the same thing, to have fun and scuba dive. Remember, if you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong!

I hope everyone has a nice day!

Tina
Scuba Sciences, Inc.
www.scubasciences.com