Taken the classes but having hard time getting final cert dives :(

[Dive-aholic]

venkat927, how did you get your training record from Scuba Sciences? Without those the instructor broke standards by certifying you without going through the entire course. This is true for PADI, and I think it holds true for all of the agencies. This is the problem iroc is having. Scuba Sciences is refusing to give them their training records.

 

[Scuba Sciences]

Hello,

This is Tina with Scuba Sciences in Phoenix, AZ. I am an Instructor at our 7th Street location. I would like to take this time to explain our views on this sitution:

I think I know who this customer and his wife are. If they are the people I'm thinking of, they took their scuba classes from me in Mar/Apr of this year. We are not in the business of upsetting customers or judging them by the dollar signs. I had numerous conversations about equipment with this gentleman in person, on the phone and by email. I did go out of my way to accomodate their schedule, held the class at our 7th street location at their request when the class was below our minimum number and I let them try my personal equipment in our indoor heated pool before they bought anything. I think I went out of my way to be helpful and accommodating.

During our class presentations, we discuss the options of certification dives in our first and last class sessions. We do issue referrals to any approved Universal Referral Member that is outside of Arizona, this is a dive store that is NASDS, NAUI, PDIC, SSI, YMCA and IDEA. PADI chooses not to participate in this program. Our website www.scubasciences.com has all of this information and more posted where anyone can read it.

Our policy is not to issue Referrals to other Arizona dive centers because we feel our student's first scuba diving experience should be a safe, clear and enjoyable one. Student Training in the Arizona lakes is not favorable for certifications due to limited visibility, the Instructor cannot see the students to maintain control and safety, and it doesn't prepare students to dive in the oceans once certified. Our classes prepare students to dive in the ocean with currents, waves and buddies/marine life you can see!

We started our recommended / not recommended Referral list due to many reasons:
1. Students were returning from certification dives from many places around the world that broke every standard known to Man (doing skills at 90 feet on the 3rd dive of the day, doing all dives in one day, to short quickie dives and more).
2. Referral centers that would not complete the paperwork correctly.
3. Referral centers that had a Dive Master conduct OW certifications when only OWI can certify and so on and so on.

We wanted our customers to be able to find a great shop that would take care of them and make their first ocean dives enjoyable and SAFE!

Our students have 3 options for certifying; one they can go on a trip with us (we have ocean trips around the world just about every weekend), second, go on a referral with an approved Universal Referral Network member outside of Arizona, or they can hire one of our Instructors privately to go where and when they want.

These customers never told me they couldn't do a weekend trip, they said it would need to be arranged in advance to take the time off. It has been close to 6 months now since their class finished. We have called them at least 3 times since their class ended. I know they needed to get time/money together for a trip, but they never told myself or our Class Coordinator that weekends were completely out.

We do issue referrals unlike the messages being posted. In fact, Shark.byte.usa (Garrett) had his son complete classes from us because he liked our Instructor, James and trusted our training. His son completed classes and went on a Referral to Hawaii and didn't have any problems.

If this is the customer I am thinking of, he called our GM this morning and worked things out. I believe he and his wife will be taking one of our Instructors on a private trip in a few months.

We can't get customers what they want or work things out if they won't call us and explain the whole story. Just wanted to let everyone know what the latest and greatest is...

Plan your dive, dive your plan, be safe and have FUN!

Tina
Scuba Sciences, Inc.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Hi, Tina. I don't know for sure, but I remember the OP coming onto the Board not too long ago asking about OW classes. It was sometime over the summer, so I don't think it's the same couple you're thinking about. But I could be wrong.

I also want to comment on your statement about certifications in the local lakes. It's obvious you haven't been diving in Lake Pleasant lately because it is not as you describe it. My wife and I do certifications there on a regular basis. Visibility over the past couple of years hasn't been less then 10', usually it's at least 15'. We can definitely see our students in these conditions. And it is completely safe. Scuba Sciences does certification dives in CA. We've also been diving in CA and experienced visibility worse than we have in Lake Pleasant. Does Scuba Scienes tell their students, "Sorry, no cert dives this weekend because we won't be able to see you." And if you do, do you refund their trip payment?

We've been in some not so good conditions in the lake. We've experienced mild currents, surf from the wake of boats, and 3-4 foot chop from storms coming in. We've also experienced completely flat seas with no current in the ocean.

It's fine that you don't do certs in the lake, but don't blame it on safety issues. Thousands of divers get certified in lakes throughout the country every year. Many in conditions worse than we have locally. Does this make them wrong?

 

[scubajcf]

Thanks Tina,

It's always good to hear the other side of a story. Often, perspectives never match. However, as a business-person, I always fall back on "the customer is always right". It sounds like you are attempting a resolution with the customer and satisfying their needs. Hopefully everything works out for you and them.

The reason I am writing is your perspective on referrals and lake diving. Wow! Although I am sure, being in business as long as Scuba Sciences as been in business, you have heard everything and seen almost everything. You have painted a radically unsafe and disappointing view of the industry. Furthermore, it would seem, by your perspective, anyone diving outside of Scuba Sciences close knit grasp is practically taking their life in their hands. While my interpretation may be a bit on the extreme side, I don't think anyone reading your post would take much less away. Is this really what a leader in the Phoenix dive market wants to convey? Take your lessons from us, or else.

Secondly, I agree, having the opportunity to get your certification in a place like San Carlos or the Caribbean is a much more pleasurable experience than in a lake. However, to say the lake is a diving hazard is a broad untruth. I have seen worse safety conditions in the Virgin Islands (at times) and California. As an instructor, you have to make the safety call first. No matter where you are in the world.

Sometimes peoples schedules and budgets don't accommodate going on a trip to get certified and the lake is a viable and safe option. The elitist attitude you are representing for your shop is not one that I think shines a positive light on the dive industry. As Dive-Aholic has conveyed, many people around the US have been certified in lakes similar to Lake Pleasant. The safety record, to my knowledge, is not any worse than the ocean. Quite honestly, I would rather have someone in the lake, often, as schedule and budget will allow than having 12 or 24 months in between dive experiences. Wouldn't you?

I, like you, am proud of my shop. And, I think your perspective on warm ocean dives being a more preferable experience to than the lake is a good one. But, throwing the words "unsafe" around is misleading and bad for the industry as a whole. Further, I know many people that have had enjoyable dives in the lake. To infer that it is impossible to do that is misleading as well. Just set the expectations from the beginning. By representing the lake as unenjoyable and unsafe is inaccurate and may keep someone out of Scuba because their time and schedule does not permit an out of town excusion. That is not good for the industry either.

Respectfully,

jcf

 

[KazInAz]

I was certified in California but dive the Lake often to improve skills.
Referance was just made to someone's budget vs cost of trips.
I was curious as to how much local shops charge for lake certifications in comparison to a trip to California or San Carlos?

Since Scuba Sciences is under the gun here I'll quote their trip prices from their web site.
California 2 days of diving is 602. 3 days is 702. That includes certification cost, transportation, food, air fills.
San Carlos 3 days is 868. That includes certification cost, transportation, hotel, air fills.
Its important to keep in mind whats included in the cost and compare apples to apples.

I was also curious why PADI wasnt included in the so called "Universal Referral Program" Doesnt sound very 'universal'. Do they just referred to anyone? How does their program work?

 

[catalina03]

I have been following the recent thread concerning Scuba Sciences and lake or no lake certifications. I was certified by Scuba Sciences in the ocean, but also enjoy the limited viz and navigation work in the local lakes. The issue is both safety and purpose of the dive. I would image, any dive facility has the intent of providing a safe environment for students, as well as preparing students to dive in a variety of conditions. I would encourage the customer(s) to resolve their issues and get on with blowing bubbles in whatever environment they wish. The continuation of blame and finger pointing does not speak well for the dive industry. The c-card is the beginning of a life time of enjoyment...however, you have to start with the card.

catalina03
Scuba Science trained

 

[scubajcf]

I was certified in California but dive the Lake often to improve skills.
Referance was just made to someone's budget vs cost of trips.
I was curious as to how much local shops charge for lake certifications in comparison to a trip to California or San Carlos?

Since Scuba Sciences is under the gun here I'll quote their trip prices from their web site.
California 2 days of diving is 602. 3 days is 702. That includes certification cost, transportation, food, air fills.
San Carlos 3 days is 868. That includes certification cost, transportation, hotel, air fills.
Its important to keep in mind whats included in the cost and compare apples to apples.

I was also curious why PADI wasnt included in the so called "Universal Referral Program" Doesnt sound very 'universal'. Do they just referred to anyone? How does their program work?

Hey Kaz,

I have no idea why PADI doesn't participate in the Universal Referall Program. However, I do know as a PADI Instructor, I can refer to just about any organization and I can accept just about any recognized organization. There is a whole set of procedures and standards outlining this procedure in the Instructor Manual.

As for lake (Pleasant) certification costs (not inclusive of classroom costs), this is what I know:

Grabbed them off Web site(s). Not responsible for changes in pricing.

Scuba Specialties: $270
Elmar: $269 (On Diver Down Boat)
All Wet $225
Oasis (NAUI) $300 (two or three person private).
Southwest Scuba ... I'll let Rob quote the details his own price, but he says $245 on his Web site (includes classroom and pool).

FYI - All offer referalls (without qualification). Price varies from $20 to $55 per person)

 

[diversteve]

I was also curious why PADI wasnt included in the so called "Universal Referral Program" Doesnt sound very 'universal'. Do they just referred to anyone? How does their program work?

Quoting Stephen Ash's reply to my post a couple pages back:

Originally, PADI was not part of the UR program. In 2003 PADI decided to particpate.The info on that page appears to be old.

 

[GreenDiverDown]

John... Rob...

... feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... I haven't done referrals in a long time...

PADI does allow "Universal Referrals" although they do not encourage them. PADI does NOT allow their instructors to send a student to another agency to do their OW dives and then return to be signed off and certified under PADI. The PADI instructor MUST do the OW portion of training.

A PADI instructor may CHOOSE to be a 'receiving instructor' of a "Universal Referral", In this case the PADI instructor would do dives 1-4 and document successful completion of these requirements. The PADI instructor would then send the student back to their original non-PADI instructor. That instructor can then certify their student in accordance with their particular agency's guidelines under the Universal Referral program. PADI insurance WILL cover the PADI instructor in this case.

PADI has an approved method for certifying a student who has completed the class and pool portion of training from a different agency. Rob has already described this above but basically includes retaining the student's referral which documents their completion of the pool and classroom work, then retesting them with all of the knowledge reviews, tests and final exam. Water skills like the swim and float are tested and then their skills are reviewed in confined water. (You CAN review all of the skills but you MUST review certain core skills.)

The student, having presented documentation from their original agency AND having passed all of the required PADI tests and watermanship skills AND having demonstrated their ability to perform the required skills may then go to OW for OW dives 1 thru 4. Having successfully completed those dives, the PADI instructor may certify them just like any other student. Of course all the other paper work needs to be in order... including the medical and all the other crap.

 

[shark.byte.usa]

Grabbed this off of the universal referral website universalreferral.com. Consequently my son was certified by PADI instructor(s) with a Universal Referral. It also sounds like it's an opt-in thing for the PADI shops/instructors. He recevied a Universal Referral Temporary C-Card upon completion of OW checkout dives.

The Universal Referral Program (URP) is a customer-oriented program designed to facilitate completion of open water training for students who travel for their training dives. According to a recent Professional Association of Diving Instructors (PADI) Training Bulletin, PADI instructors can now accept Universal Referral Program students.

The member organizations of the Universal Referral Program would like to extend their sincere appreciation to PADI, and to encourage all PADI instructors to take advantage of the new policy.

In a Training Bulletin issued second quarter of 2003, the Professional Association of Diving Instructors announced that PADI instructors "…complete the open water dives as outlined in the Universal guidelines and send the diver back to the original instructor for certification." PADI instructors now have the option of completing referrals for students possessing Universal Referral paperwork. According to PADI, members can look on the Member website for complete details or contact an educational consultant for additional information. The bulletin further stated that PADI insurance offered through Vicencia and Buckley covers the receiving PADI instructor for Universal Referral open water training.

Their trips break down the best as I can tell for a student
2 Day California Boat:
$349 boat (all-inclusive, i.e. includes food & airfills)
$117 Basic Student Package (Gear Rental, C-Card, Instructor Fees)
$136 Transportation
-------
$602 ($485 Non-student)

Add $100 to boat fee for a 3 day'er.

As someone who goes to California often on my own, this is not bad, yes I save a few bucks in transportation (It costs me about $120 rt when gas prices are highest), but I suppose your paying for the convenience of not having to drive yourself, the bus does take considerably longer, depending on your driving style. The boat's a little on the higher side, but not out of line by any means, but that's more than likely dictated by the boat not the shop. The Sand Dollar is a nice boat though. All things considered I think their SoCal trips are fairly priced.

Garrett