Taken the classes but having hard time getting final cert dives :(

[Iroc]

Just wanted to elaborate on a couple things.....

1- Tina and James were our insructors. They were awesome totally helpful and super nice! always willing to go into depth (no pun intended lol) on any question or concern. I have personally refered a few of my friends to that shop since we were so happy with the training.

2- Yes tina did let us use her stuff in the pool which was very helpful in making the right decision.

3- Yes we did also buy all of our equipment from them even though selection was a tad more limited and a bit more expensive than other options just because we wanted to support the store and employees there. Like i said we try to be loyal like that.

4- No i actually have not spoken with tina or james about this matter specifically. not sure what if anything it would have changed but i didnt. every time i talked to someone about it it was a random call from them and not sure who it was. I guess i just kinda figured that the person on the phone giving me a hard time and telling me i needed to "figure something out" was put in the position to call me because he was knowledgable as to how things worked and could accurately portray scuba sciences opinions and customer service to the customers being contacted... maybe that is putting to much faith in a person on the phone. but i just assumed thats what was going on. then i started to look around online and find i am not the first person to have these issues. so in conclusion its not a isolated incident it seems to be common practice by someone or people there (by my experience not tina or james).

5- I did contact scuba science yesterday since i still had not recieved a call back and it had been about 2 weeks. The phone was quickly handed off to paul which i have only spoken to a couple time. He knew exactly who i was and the situation. he told me the problem had not been resolved since i had never spoken to him personally. he told me that the info i had recieved in prior phone calls was completely wrong and they could do week day trips. he wanted to know why i would even want my records when i had allready taken such a good course. i told him it had nothing to do with the class i just wanted to get my c-card so i could go diving in the la jolla cove with my wife when visiting family and it wasnt working with them. he said he was totally willing to work something out with us and would get back to me with what the costs would be to go that route. i told him i was willing to hear any options they might have and it would depend on prices. he said he would get back to me yesterday or today to let us know what they would be able to do. I was still unable to get a straight answer as to being able to get a copy of records if we chose to go another route. So at this point that is what has happened


Like i said tina and james were awesome! any issues so far have had nothing to do with them. that is why i stated i wouldnt want to make hard feeling with scuba sciences, because of those 2. and i dont know who i had spoken to on the phone the last 3-4 times that was being so difficult. one of these days we will get that elusive c-card and hopefully love diving as much as all of you guys I will let you know more when i know more

 

[shark.byte.usa]

As for the lake/no lake discussion...I've always been a big proponent of certification dives being conducted in the enviroment your most likely to dive, Rob and I have had this discussion a couple times. That being said, it's not always feasible because of scheduling, finances, time, location, etc. Thousands of people get certified in lakes and quarries every year and I doubt that is their intended dive destination/environment, and their instructors seem to be doing a safe job checking them out. I dare speculate that some of the conditions experienced are not as favorable as say, Lake Pleasant.

I'm not an instructor so I can't speak to the favorability or safety of checking OW students in a lake vs the ocean, so I'll leave that to the pros.


I can however say the lake is a safe and sometimes challenging dive environment and diving in the lake on a regular basis when I can't make it to the ocean has made me a better 'ocean' diver, especially in respects to Low viz, navigation, buoyancy, buddy skills, etc. The more you can dive the better off you'll be...

I just like to have ALL the available options and up-front, matter-of-fact, truthful advice from LDS/Instructor(s). Maybe I want too much...

Edit:
IMHO "Loyalty" to an LDS is overrated, especially when it's a 1 way street! Whoever will give me the best training/advice, best trip value and the gear I want for the best price gets my "benjamins" and I guarantee that's the only "Loyalty" they want in return. That is why my "Loyalty" is divided amongst 2 or 3 different places and probably always will be.

Garrett

 

[GreenDiverDown]

The lake /no lake thing is a smoke screen!

 

[Web Monkey]

The lake /no lake thing is a smoke screen!

I have to agree. Unless it's filled with toxic waste or is plainly dangerous in some other respect, it should be just fine.

We certify tons of divers in freezing cold, low-viz water in Upstate NY every year, and have for the last 48 years.

Not only has nobody died or been injured, but training students to the level where they can handle less-than-perfect conditions makes them much better divers when they get to dive Someplace Warm.

Terry

 

[Dive-aholic]

Grabbed them off Web site(s). Not responsible for changes in pricing.

Scuba Specialties: $270
Elmar: $269 (On Diver Down Boat)
All Wet $225
Oasis (NAUI) $300 (two or three person private).
Southwest Scuba ... I'll let Rob quote the details his own price, but he says $245 on his Web site (includes classroom and pool).

Correct - $245. This price includes classroom, confined water training, open water dives, BCD/regulator/gauges and tanks during CW and OW, certification, and the Project AWARE course and certification. Student divers must purchase their own mask, snorkel, fins, booties (although we do have extra masks, snorkels, and fins for use in CW if needed) and the manuals. They must also rent wetsuits for the lake and pay the lake entry fee of $5. Total price for the course ends up running somewhere between $450 and $550, depending on whether the student buys a manual or CD-ROM and what type of equipment is bought. This is for the entire course from beginning to end and includes gear purchase.

Stephen, you've summarized it quite well. But as far as I'm concerned, if I take divers through OW 1-4, then they get a PADI PIC. If they choose to go back to the original agency and get a PIC through them as well, that's fine.

iroc, I don't think anyone is bashing Tina and James here. The discussion is focused more on the policies they need to follow. Even if Tina and James don't agree with the policies, they don't have much of a choice. SSI does not allow its instructors to work independently of an LDS like most of the other agencies do. If they want to teach, they need to play nice with Scuba Sciences. But, please don't take this as meaning they don't agree with Scuba Sciences' policies. They may completely agree with them. Hopefully your situation turns out well for you. You've definitely had more patience than I would have. I'm sure you'll be diving soon, one way or another.

 

[booth22]

Our policy is not to issue Referrals to other Arizona dive centers because we feel our student's first scuba diving experience should be a safe, clear and enjoyable one.

So you do check-out dives in a pool?


Iroc-Just chalk it up and get certified with Rob!- at the lake! (gasp)

 

[scubajcf]

Rob, My commission is flat 10% ...

 

[scubajcf]

John... Rob...

... feel free to correct me if I'm wrong... I haven't done referrals in a long time...

PADI does allow "Universal Referrals" although they do not encourage them. PADI does NOT allow their instructors to send a student to another agency to do their OW dives and then return to be signed off and certified under PADI. The PADI instructor MUST do the OW portion of training.

A PADI instructor may CHOOSE to be a 'receiving instructor' of a "Universal Referral", In this case the PADI instructor would do dives 1-4 and document successful completion of these requirements. The PADI instructor would then send the student back to their original non-PADI instructor. That instructor can then certify their student in accordance with their particular agency's guidelines under the Universal Referral program. PADI insurance WILL cover the PADI instructor in this case.

PADI has an approved method for certifying a student who has completed the class and pool portion of training from a different agency. Rob has already described this above but basically includes retaining the student's referral which documents their completion of the pool and classroom work, then retesting them with all of the knowledge reviews, tests and final exam. Water skills like the swim and float are tested and then their skills are reviewed in confined water. (You CAN review all of the skills but you MUST review certain core skills.)

The student, having presented documentation from their original agency AND having passed all of the required PADI tests and watermanship skills AND having demonstrated their ability to perform the required skills may then go to OW for OW dives 1 thru 4. Having successfully completed those dives, the PADI instructor may certify them just like any other student. Of course all the other paper work needs to be in order... including the medical and all the other crap.

Dead on ...

 

[namabiru]

I, too, will comment on the "lake not being as safe" bit. I did a one-dive finish up course with Diveaholic and Diveaholic's wife (does she have a handle and I just don't know it?), and I could see my instructors just fine. We were at the same distance as my OW instructor, whom I worked with in gin-clear ocean water (sorry, I meant safe)at Puerto Gallera, Philippines. In fact, the lake is a great place to hone buoyancy skills early-on. You learn to stay off the bottom not because you'll harm coral, but because you muck up the water and ruin your vis. At least if you *do* hit the bottom in the lake, you're only hitting muck, not getting coral burns which will take weeks to heal properly or sea urchin stings which hurt a lot.

And I will camp with Diveaholic and Shark.byte--there IS something to be said for getting certified where you will do most of your diving. That was my first lake experience, and there were just a couple of differences, but nothing drastically major. Perhaps this comes back to where you should learn how to weight yourself for different conditions in OW, rather than just being weighted down so you'll "sink properly".

I'm glad to see that SS is concerned for their customers, and want them to have a good experience. I wouldn't expect less from a dive shop. But does that imply that other dive shops do NOT have this same concern? Having worked with 3 operators, I can confidently refute this claim. All 3 operators, as representatives of their profession and their shops, were absolutely wonderful.

It's just that you have to be careful when taking an "us vs. them" attitude.

I'm glad, though, that OP's situation will somehow get resolved, so they can enjoy their diving vacation. I think that in this quest to protect the well-meaning but kind of dodgily-worded mission statement, SS forgot that in addition to being in business, it is also SS's job to promote scuba, and to encourage people to, in the PADI statements, "go places, meet people, and see things" (or something like that).

I can tell you, though, that I would be hesitant to use a dive shop which, in its quest to emphasize the quality of its own services, indirectly condemns all other dive shops as being not trustworthy to fill out paperwork correctly, or deliberately placing beginning students in dodgy conditions. That's just not nice.

 

[Scuba Sciences]

Hi Everyone,

Here I am again to clairfy my opinion on lake diving.

As an Instructor, I could not imagine trying to conduct open water certification skills while kneeling on the muck that lies at the bottom of our lakes. The muck is stirred up and we all know it doesn't settle quickly, it's hard enough to keep track of one buddy when you have limitied visibility, let alone a class, and I want my students to be excited after being diving especially when getting certified. I love it when my students get to see something cool on their certifications, it makes the process of getting certified all worth it. Now you have your license to learn!

That is not only my opinion, but our other Open Water Instructors as well. We made the policy of no lake certifications over 25+ years ago way before I was around.

As for sport diving, I couldn't think of a better place for divers to practice limited vis or navigation. You can really learn to trust your compass when you can't cheat and look at the sunlight. I agree that it would be better to have someone hop in at the lake and practice to keep skills up if they have time gaps between dives. We all know what happens when divers do not stay active and think they will remember everything. I wish I had a nickle for every time I reviewed assembling the cylinder to the BCD .

Yes, it's true that SSI (Scuba Schools Intl) won't let Instructors work independently of a store for many reasons. One reason is we are audited periodically to insure the material is being covered correctly and two that the pool skills are completely understood by the students. Scuba Sciences requires annual training to make sure our water and rescue skills are up to date. I personally think it's a great thing to be audited and have annual skills practice. I wish we could require all divers to refresh skills on at least an annual basis if they are not active.

I'm not sure why some PADI Instructors will and will not accept the Universal Referral paperwork. The website for the Universal Referral network says Padi will allow their Instructors the option to accept the paperwork or not. I couldn't find anything on the Padi website. I had arranged a referral for a student in the Caribbean with a Naui Instructor, when they arrived the NAUI instructor was sick or something, they were assigned another Instructor to conduct the cert dives who was Padi. He wouldn't accept the paperwork, made the student go through another class, complete pool training, complete homework and another test when he just finished our class one week prior. It was a good thing he had enough time to do this, he only got one day of sport diving in. That's only one of my experiences with Padi instructors and Universal Referral paperwork.

Anyway, I hope everyone has a Happy Halloween, don't eat too much candy that you can't fit into your wetsuit! :blinking:

Tina
Scuba Sciences, Inc.
plan your dive, dive you plan and be safe!