Taken the classes but having hard time getting final cert dives :(

[scubapig52]

Gee I wonder why Paul who has spent his whole 32 Years Teaching safe Scuba and only cares about the students not the profit, would say bad things about other dive stores ,unless the other store lead the Customer that way. There is nothing said about other dive stores in Scuba Sciences in a negative way. Diving is fun and if taught Right is safe ,not all stores in Arizona Teach a safe course and thats a fact Paul will bend over backwards for any Diver and thats the FACT !!!!

I've had a few very similar experiences with Paul. My old LDS owner is the same way. It's one of the reasons I began teaching independently. I can understand business taking a forefront, but not at the expense of your customers.

Ignore your customers and they will go away.




Just when it's getting good! [/QUOTE]

 

[scubajcf]

Over the summer, there were several Thursday Nights where we had anywhere from 6 people to 30 people show up. Many who participate on the board.

Phoenix has a small, but committed (or should be committed) dive society.

jcf

 

[Scuba Sciences]

I agree with everyone else that we need to focus on postive, fun things of scuba diving, not beating the dead sea"horse" anymore

You just said it best Steve:

Hey, Tina... it is perfectly fine if you don't want to teach at the lake. That's your call as an instructor and none of us have the right to question your decision. As far as that goes, Scuba Sciences (the store) can certainly choose not to train at the lake.... for what ever reason.

But if I'm wrong, then please tell me why, when a customer no longer wishes to complete their training at one of your facilities, will you not do everything you can to help them continue their training with another local shop? Please tell me again why you won't issue referrals to other Arizona dive centers.

I'll repeat myself, we conduct specialty, Expert and Dive Leader training at the lake, just not BASIC Certifications. For Basic Students that need a referral, we will, and do help them in arranging a Referral with a Universal Referral Network Member that will conduct the certification dives in the ocean. We have issued many referrals to stores in Northern Arizona and Tucson for the students to complete certifications in Mexico, California or other places.

We do not hide anything about our policies. Our website, flyers and receipts all state our policies. This information is out there to inform our customers before they enroll in classes, reinforced during the class and usually works out just fine.

As for the comments on Paul, he will respond to those personally...

Hogwash, I say. The lake isn't the issue. Or do you really mean what you said above? Do you really believe that your shop is the only safe, competent and professional scuba business in Arizona?[/quote]

I meant what I said as to what pertains to my store's policies and beliefs. You are reading way too much into it. We want our Student's first experience to be as fun, enjoyable and as safe as can be. MY OPINION (as well as all of our other Instructors) is the Lakes are not a good place to conduct Basic Certification dives due to the limited vis, muck that is stirred up, fishing line, etc. After teaching for close to 10 years now, I have experienced my students go into a full blown panic while snorkeling at the lake for a variety of reasons: couldn't see their fins, worrying about what was underneath them, felt closterphobic because they couldn't see, etc. We decided decades ago that we wouldn't certify Basic Students in the lake.

OK, everyone take a deep breath, but don't hold it....Let's go blow some bubbles and have some FUN!

Tina :blinking:
Scuba Sciences, Inc.
www.scubasciences.com

 

[GreenDiverDown]

But if I'm wrong, then please tell me why, when a customer no longer wishes to complete their training at one of your facilities, will you not do everything you can to help them continue their training with another local shop? Please tell me again why you won't issue referrals to other Arizona dive centers.

I'll repeat myself, we conduct specialty, Expert and Dive Leader training at the lake, just not BASIC Certifications. For Basic Students that need a referral, we will, and do help them in arranging a Referral with a Universal Referral Network Member that will conduct the certification dives in the ocean. We have issued many referrals to stores in Northern Arizona and Tucson for the students to complete certifications in Mexico, California or other places.

I don't think we're 'beating a dead horse... I just think that you don't want to answer the questions.


I understand that as an instructor... or as shop policy... it is your call... or the shop's call... as to under what conditions you will train. If you choose not to train at the lake that is fine. No one here has a problem with that. We may disagree and we may choose to use the lake... but no one here is saying that YOU have to do this.

But that is not the issue and you know it!

We are talking about a student who no longer wishes to continue training at your facility. The reason doesn't matter. It may be the OP in this thread or one of the many other divers that we have met over the years... divers that have left your shop and come to us to finish their training.

Why will you not help them finish their training at another local shop of their choosing?

If your answer is that you don't think that student should train at a lake, then I say your attitude is condescending and patronizing. How can you assume to tell that student who is leaving your facility where, and how and with whom they can complete their training.

As a matter of fact, at my shop we do most of of training in the same places that you do... Catalina and San Carlos. Lake certification is a VERY small part of total numbers. We do not encourage it, but if the student wants to do it, then we fit it in our schedule... some how. (I think John probably takes the biggest hit when it comes to having to go to the lake!)

So, please... just answer the question.. Why won't you help a student transfer over to us?
Is it because you don't think we run a safe, solid diving course or is it because you don't want to loose a student to a direct competitor.


That's OK... you don't have to answer. It is VERY clear. We've been hearing it for years... straight from the horse's mouth.

 

[shark.byte.usa]

I'm glad this thread didn't die, we never have anything good going on in the Arizona Forum, it's about time

Welcome to all the new board members from Scuba Sciences

 

[scubajcf]

Tina (et.al.),

Up to this point, I have tried to be middle of the road .... but my two cents;

I read this thread with amazement. I grew up diving on the East Coast. I have dove most of the lakes in Colorado (spent 8 years there). I have seen hundreds, maybe thousands of divers go into the Ocean off the coast of Mass./Rhode Island / Long Island and mountain lakes with visibility comparable to or lower than Lake Pleasant (and other conditions much worse). Yes that includes beginner divers too.

Lake Pleasant has its moments and as Steve has eluded, I do a fair amount of beginner and advanced training in Lake Pleasant (about 200 training dives per year). To sit here and discuss Lake Pleasant as an unsafe diving environment is absurd. Yes, that is my opinion and you are entitled to your own. But remember, as instructors, our opinions carry a lot of weight. So when you sit here and pontificate or paint pictures of strings of panic in the lake (from people snorkeling ), you are just influencing people out of the local waters. That is a huge dis-service to the local dive community and industry. Maybe Lake Pleasant is not the greatest, but it isn't that bad.

FYI - Lake Pleasant Conditions:

5 to 15 feet of visibility.
Temp: Low 70s

Plenty of gravel dive sites -- like Scorpion Bay. Stay on the West side (wind blows West to East). Most of the silt ends up on the East Side. Want to stay off the bottom, dive the dam. Looking for a good place to practice skills, try Desert Tortoise Road. During the winter time, I have seen Lake Pleasant visibility get upwards of 30-40 feet. Yes, you heard me. 30+ feet.

As for experience, there is plenty to see. Big, and I mean big, catfish and karp. Some great underwater landscape including some small walls that are just fun to cruise around. At night, you can dive for crawdads. Wanna treasure hunt, plenty of fishing lores and sunglasses.

I set expectations right. This is not Bonaire or Cozumel. It is Lake Pleasant! It is one of the best training grounds I know of - beginner or advanced. If you can dive Lake Pleasant; you can just about dive anywhere.

As for shops that choose not to train in the lakes. Thank you very much. I am more than happy to train whatever students you don't want too. For those potential divers who are looking at various training options, I think this thread is proof that you need to do your due diligence and not latch on to the first piece of hooey someone throws your way.

In the spirit of our favorite Dive a holic: If you are considering beginner or advanced dive training, shoot me a PM. I'll give you some honest opinions, no sales rhetoric, great value and should you choose me (and the shop I am affiliated with) a safe and enjoyable training experience.

Have a great day diving.

jcf

PS - Many Many Many lake dives and never been entangled in fishing line. Yes, I do still dive with a cutting device or two -- just in case.


///

 

[Dive-aholic]

Gee I wonder why Paul who has spent his whole 32 Years Teaching safe Scuba and only cares about the students not the profit, would say bad things about other dive stores ,unless the other store lead the Customer that way. There is nothing said about other dive stores in Scuba Sciences in a negative way. Diving is fun and if taught Right is safe ,not all stores in Arizona Teach a safe course and thats a fact Paul will bend over backwards for any Diver and thats the FACT !!!!

If you're going to quote me, then please do it in context. This is the post I was responding to:

I was very disappointed with the way Paul handled every store issue (down to telling staff how to stock the shelves) before giving me his incomplete attention. Most of his talk was telling me the difference between Scuba Sciences and other local dive shops was that SS would make me a "diver". I was very turned off by what I saw and heard.

I have not experienced Paul bending over backwards for anyone, and I have been in the store quite a few times.

 

[Dive-aholic]

I'm glad this thread didn't die, we never have anything good going on in the Arizona Forum, it's about time

Welcome to all the new board members from Scuba Sciences

 

[GreenDiverDown]

Gee I wonder why Paul who has spent his whole 32 Years Teaching safe Scuba and only cares about the students not the profit, would say bad things about other dive stores ...

 

[catalina03]

Over the summer, there were several Thursday Nights where we had anywhere from 6 people to 30 people show up. Many who participate on the board.

Phoenix has a small, but committed (or should be committed) dive society.

jcf

I would be open to hearing more about when you are diving as a group. I continue to look for new and different experiences, including muck diving