Suicide Clips

[Eidolon]

A guy dies in a car wreck, there’s cell phone in his pocket. The cell phone is to blame. Right?

If it was in his pocket it's not likely that he was using it at the time of the wreck. Not very analogous to Ormsby's death.

To me, Ormsby's death had two factors relevant to this discussion, he died and his corpse was entangled on 'suicide clips'. Regardless of what the cause of death was, the clips may have contributed to his death and they certainly did become entangled at some point when he was underwater. Even if it didn't happen until after he had died, it still shows that it can happen.

To me it makes no sense to say, "Oh, I supposed this might get accidentally clipped on to something" and yet still believing, "Well, that's no big deal". So what if it's easy to avoid it from clipping on to something most of the time or if you can cut yourself free easily most of the time. It only takes one time for you to encounter the exception to the rule and it could cause your death. Doesn't it make more sense to just not use them and avoid the possibility entirely? Calling them 'suicide clips' may be a bit extreme but I still advise my students to avoid them in favor of fasteners that are less likely to accidentally clip on to something. There are better alternatives available.

 

[Divin'Papaw]

I'm sure it would help a lot if crap-hole dive companies like OMS for one example would stop putting this junk on their products.

http://www.omsdive.com/reels.html

Guaranteed for life..I think they mean the life of the product, but you may want to confirm that

I don't see anything wrong with the snaps on this link. They are bolt snaps and butterfly snaps. A butterfly snap is a modified bolt snap. It is still a bolt snap however in that it can be opened under stress unlike a marine snap or caribiner. It is NOT a suicide clip.

 

[all4scuba05]

Eidolon...

Well in that case wouldn't it be better to mount your backgas upside down so that it lessons the chance of getting a line caught on your primary regs behind your head? Ridiculous isn't it? Well perhaps the placement of the suicide clip is what kills. On my right chest ring? Don't see how I can't get out of that.

 

[Eidolon]

Eidolon...

Well in that case wouldn't it be better to mount your backgas upside down so that it lessons the chance of getting a line caught on your primary regs behind your head? Ridiculous isn't it? Well perhaps the placement of the suicide clip is what kills. On my right chest ring? Don't see how I can't get out of that.

Firefighters do mount 'em that way due to the environments that they go into.

If you're doing drifts and reefs and just sightseeing, you probably never will have an incident. If you're doing wreck penetrations or running into a burning building or even if you're just diving in an area that has lots of fishing line or other known possible entanglemt hazards then I'd avoid them. (I bet firefighters don't use them either).

Why would you use them when there are better alternatives available? I guess I don't understand the people who feel like there's a need to use them for some reason. Is it because they're cool or something? Am I one of the uncool kids now?

 

[dumpsterDiver]

I have experience with suicide gate clips and tell everyone that I know that they are not good. I watched my wife get her gate clip accidentally clipped off to the granny line which was tied from the anchor and rigged to run back towrd the stern. We were on a night anchor dive in a strong current and while swimming/pulling forward to the anchor (while near the surface) the clip just barely opened and closed on the thick rope. The rope was so thick that there was no way to manipulate the rope to get it out of the gate. People behind us were pulling themselves forward on the rope, so it was very tight, more like a solid bar than a limp rope. We had to remove her gear and then just barely with 2 people got the clip off. The strong current and waves and dark made this a real chore. If she had gotten clipped off to a solid wire of similar large diameter on a wreck it would have been a big problem.

Another personal incident: My buddies had a suicide clip attached to an oxygen deco bottle that we would hang from the side of the boat on a 20 foot rope. This clip was attahced with a metal connection to the tank itself. There was no way to cut it off.

It was very rough and i was solo diving and trying to do the oxygen deco and getting yanked around. Somehow, I really don't know how, the clip, clipped itself to my regulator hose near the first stage. Now I was attached to the bottle and when I realized there was something wrong, i let go of the bottle and deco rope and the bottle (which had clipped itself behind my head) was now slamming me in the head as each 5-6 ft wave passed. I really can not explain what happened, but I ended up climbing the rope and screaming for help, because i didn't want to remove my tank while getting slammed around. I could have easily been knocked unconcious.

I dive deep air solo, use old beat up gear, but I won't use a gate clip. It is unnecessarily dangerous. I have also seen numerous examples of other people becoming moderately snagged by gate clips. All you have to so is swim by a line and if there is pressure on it, the gate will open and close automatically onto it. This is really very simple.

 

[nadwidny]

Gentile then noticed that a cable had been snagged by a brass spring-gated clip, or "suicide clip," that Ormsby had rigged to his harness to hang tools from. It was a telling moment for Gentile. He now knew what had happened to Ormsby. The cable that snaked up his leg to his back must have prevented Ormsby from escaping, causing him to struggle and entangle himself even more. (emphasis mine)

Gentile cut that last cable loose, and the body immediately began to rise. The body was not precisely under the hole opening and came up on the wrong side of a protruding bulkhead. The body and the lift bag got lodged in the ceiling. Both divers were exhausted from their efforts, and Gentile remembers how he was overbreathing his regulator and he got "real scared." Gentile and Jaszyn threw their hands up and exited the hole.”

So what you’ve got is Kevin’s interpretation of what he thought Gary perceived.

Dude, go back to the first sentence. I read it differently.

The clip, at least in my opinion, was the least of John Ormsby’s problems.

Taken individually each thing that happened to John Ormsby was the least of his problems. Together it spelled disaster. Gentile perceived the use of suicide clips as enough of a problem to specifically recommend against their use (Advanced Wreck Diving Guide, 1988). As do Keatts and Skerry in their book "Complete Wreck Diving" (1995). I choose to take the word of experienced pioneers in wreck diving.

 

[nadwidny]

Actually the reason that I asked was that on a dive this year, another diver with us got snagged on fishing line. I had to cut him loose. It was hooked onto a gate clip on his belt. The scary thing was that this happened at the end of the dive immediately prior to ascending. Another reason to watch your buddy I suppose.

I choose not to use them because I am quite happy with bolt clips. Just playing it safe....

Good news.

 

[NorthWoodsDiver]

I use those cheap aluminum carabiners and have several on my person at all times. I have never had an entanglement because of one of those but I doubt even if I do that its something that could not be easilly taken care of with a knife or by calming down and evaluating what to do.

people dont die because of snaps they die because of carelessness and the inability to stay calm. people loose gear because of snaps but not lives.

Especially with 7mm gloves on cold hands the large aluminum carabiners work great and even the locking versions are easier to manipulate than some bolt snaps.

 

[biz_nate]

...even the locking versions are easier to manipulate than some bolt snaps.

I was just about to ask- what about locking beaners? It seems a happy medium- easier to manipulate than a clip, and probably even harder to open. Rock climbers use them all the time, because of their high degree of strength and security.

 

[IceBergSlim]

I was just about to ask- what about locking beaners? It seems a happy medium- easier to manipulate than a clip, and probably even harder to open. Rock climbers use them all the time, because of their high degree of strength and security.

Because they are a pain to lock. Twisting that collar is hard to do in many cases and most people would give up pretty quickly. That eliminates the whole point.

And about Ormsby: in the photos included in TLD the cables are clearly wrapped around his LEGS. Legs are hard to reach.