Suicide Clips

[Thalassamania]

Where are divers placing these "suicide clips" that they can't cut themselves out of it?

"Gilligan remembered that the Florida group were "****ing around with their gear." John Ormsby, in particular, fussed with his weight belt. Gary Gentile remembers that Ormsby's belt looked like a carpenter's tool belt. A hammer, an adjustable wrench, a crowbar, and pliers were slung from the spring-gated snap hooks that hung from his belt. This kind of gear configuration was popular with Florida cave divers, who were responsible for most technical diving innovations in the Sunshine State. But it was not the same in the cold depths of the Northeast. Wreck divers who frequent the Doria call the snaps 'suicide clips.'"

Note: all he needed to do (to be rid of the clips) was ditch his weight belt.

 

[all4scuba05]

Oh my God!!! The weight belt killed him. I gotta move all my weight to the B/P... : )

 

[Jasonmh]

"...
Note: all he needed to do (to be rid of the clips) was ditch his weight belt.

Hi Thal,

I am trying to follow you, and maybe I missed something, are you say he should have ditched his weight belt in 200+ feet of water with a deco obligation?

 

[rawls]

I tend to agree with Thal...clips or no clips it seems that Ormsby's fate resulted more in loss of buoyancy control than anything. My question is that I wonder, when Ormsby was an experienced cave diver, how he allowed his buoyancy to get so out of control.

 

[String]

Quite possibly narc'd and a little bit disorientated as a result.

 

[riguerin]

But to say that there was a documentable fatality that resulted from such a clip and to then declare that clip a “death trap” as a result of that accident, when in point of fact it was neither the proximate nor ultimate cause of Ormsby’s death is at best foolish and at worst both disingenuous and intellectualy dishonest, in either case it requires more kool-aid than I can stomach.

Well, I guess I agree with you ... albeit, I'm totally confounded trying to determine what logic process you used to arrive here. It makes me wonder if we're even reading the same thread.

A poster asked if there was "any data of these suicide clips killing anyone diving". The Ormsby incident meets the basic spirit of the question and the posts that followed it. To paraphrase, "Has anyone ever died from entanglement where suicide clips were implicated as a possible contributer ?" Without, hyper-analyzing this, a reasonable person would likely conclude, yes.

Is the Ormsby incident indisputable proof that spring-gated clips are killers? Absolutely not. It's a data point and nothing more. Neither you nor I were there at the time of Ormsby's demise, so neither of us can ever provide conclusive proof either way. We can only speculate, based on the best information that we each have. Anything else would be presumptuous and arrogant.

Frankly I don't need a big science project or lengthy legal proceeding to convince me that: 1.) It's entirely possible and eventually probable that simply brushing against something underwater will open the gate of a gated clip, thus exposing me to added risk of entanglement. 2.) Divers have died from entanglement.

It's a trivial mental exercise to develop the logical sequence that connects these two points. Ultimately, each of us has to process this information and reach our conclusion on how we choose to dive.

 

[Thalassamania]

A guy dies in a car wreck, there’s cell phone in his pocket. The cell phone is to blame. Right?

Hi Thal,

I am trying to follow you, and maybe I missed something, are you say he should have ditched his weight belt in 200+ feet of water with a deco obligation?

Howdy. Non-optimum (and Monday night Quarterbacking to boot) but I’d rather vent my suit (or even flood it) to get neutral and back to the line and then use the line to stay down until someone can bring me some lead when the alternative is to drown.

I tend to agree with Thal...clips or no clips it seems that Ormsby's fate resulted more in loss of buoyancy control than anything. My question is that I wonder, when Ormsby was an experienced cave diver, how he allowed his buoyancy to get so out of control.

He had a bad day, can happen to each and every one of us. That's the lesson I take away.

Knowing a bit about the folks involved and psychology of the incident, I'll take the risk and say that Ormsby was put off his feed by the lack of respect and deference (that he was used to) displayed by the Wahoo folks and thus he did not take their warnings seriously. That combined with his tangle on descent set him up for an accident. IT CAN HAPPEN TO ANY OF US!!!

 

[Jasonmh]

...I’d rather vent my suit (or even flood it) to get neutral and back to the line and then use the line to stay down until someone can bring me some lead when the alternative is to drown.

A fair point. I also wonder if he didn't realize where he was caught to know that he could remove his belt.

Is the Ormsby case indisputable proof that spring-gated clips are killers? Absolutely not. It's a data point and nothing more...
Frankly I don't need a big science project or length legal proceeding to convince me that: 1.) It's entirely possible and eventually probable that simply brushing against something underwater will open the gate of "gated clip", thus exposing me to a risk of entanglement. 2.) Diver have died from entanglement...

This is where my thinking is. It wearing one of these like eating a bullet? Certainly not. But if I think that there is a slightly higher risk of being entangled using one, and I know of an alternative that I believe lessens that chance, I am going to use that alternative. Just one of the many areas in diving that people can evaluate the risk for themselves.

 

[Hemlon]

I'm not concerned about something in front of me getting tangled because I carry a knife and trauma shears.

 

[rookers]

I carry a knife and trauma shears

Me too, but I will be happy if I never, ever deploy them from necessity.