Suicide Clips

[Gilldiver]

I have been "Hooked up" twice by the gate clips. The first was onto some 60 or 90# mono and I did not know I was hooked till the tribble hook had set into my dry suit. Luckly just the suit and not me, but it still was a gash that took a while to get fixed. Shears are just about the only way you are getting out of that and if there is 20 or 30' of steel leader you will work at it some. On some wrecks I bring down wire nips as I know that there is leader all over the place.

The 2nd was into my own reel line, my fault, perhaps but it still took a while to clear in zero vis with mits on.

As for the Doria death, I also know most all the divers mentioned, and perhaps I should say - I dive with most all the divers mentioned (would be out with Gilligan and maybe Gentile today or Sunday but for a nasty head cold thanks to my daughter). One comment was "why didn't he just cut himself out?" - well, the depth was at about 240', everyone was narcked (air days in the early 90's) and no one here, and I mean no one here, really knows how they will react in the stressed stituation untill they are in a few. Will you keep calm or hit the panic button? Gary Gentille wrote about it once and said in better words, "every one gets scared and panicks a little bit, what I do is get it over with quickly and then figure out how to get out."

Pete

 

[all4scuba05]

That's the risk with that type of tech diving. When you carry so much gear for a dive that one single line getting caught up on your gear can kill you, well then that's the risk you were willing to take. So yeah, something as small as a suicide clip can kill you. But using it on a single tank, daytime, 50ft reef dive, in the tropics, what are the chances of that killing you?
One way not to get caught in that situation is to stop diving through areas with lines but then we'd be missing some great diving. We all choose how much risk is acceptable individually. If I have a suicide clip and all I do is dive outside the Doria, and you have no sucide clips but you penetrate the Doria, then YOU'RE the one taking the higher risk. Should I call your dive a suicide dive because quite a few have died doing penetration dives?
Diving in itself is a suicide sport. We can't breathe water. Take the risks you want and stop screaming YOU'RE GOING TO DIE.

 

[Hemlon]

Wow...tempers are really heating up in this thread.

Here's an idea: If you don't like these hooks, don't use them!

Geez...that was easy.

 

[Hickdive]

I used gated clips or carabiners, as did my peers, for over twenty years of wreck diving and never had a problem and neither did anyone I know; but I don't use them now.

Why?


Because it means I don't have every mayfly in diving coming up to me on the boat to lecture me on my 'suicide clips'

Seriously though, there is a small but definite hazard associated with their use and if I can mitigate a risk, however small, by careful choice of equipment I'll do it. That doesn't mean to say that I think these things are dangerous enough to call them 'suicide clips' or to berate someone for using them.

IMO the correct way to use this type of clip is to attach it to the accessory and then clip onto a D-ring on your harness, not the other way round. That way in the unlikely event you do clip into something, detaching the accessory should free you. I've seen pictures of Mr Ormsby before his fatal dive and it seems to me that he had a non-qr belt with the clips threaded onto it such that tools etc. clipped down into them. I may have misinterpreted the photo but this might or might not have had a bearing on the accident. Just a thought.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

IMO the correct way to use this type of clip is to attach it to the accessory and then clip onto a D-ring on your harness, not the other way round. That way in the unlikely event you do clip into something, detaching the accessory should free you. I've seen pictures of Mr Ormsby before his fatal dive and it seems to me that he had a non-qr belt with the clips threaded onto it such that tools etc. clipped down into them. I may have misinterpreted the photo but this might or might not have had a bearing on the accident. Just a thought.

The gate clip can still accidentally capture a large diameter rope or wire and the fact that it is also clipped off to your d-ring will not necessarily allow you to release yourself easily.

 

[Gilldiver]

IMO the correct way to use this type of clip is to attach it to the accessory and then clip onto a D-ring on your harness, not the other way round. That way in the unlikely event you do clip into something, detaching the accessory should free you. I've seen pictures of Mr Ormsby before his fatal dive and it seems to me that he had a non-qr belt with the clips threaded onto it such that tools etc. clipped down into them. I may have misinterpreted the photo but this might or might not have had a bearing on the accident. Just a thought.

I have a few hand held lights around and that was exactly how I riged them - I put a gate on the handle with a leash running to a bolt snap on my D-ring. In this case, the gate is always either in my hand or on a front D-ring where I can see it.

The real killers are lower down or on your side where you do not have two hand access to them or can not see them to clear them.

 

[biz_nate]

Because they are a pain to lock. Twisting that collar is hard to do in many cases and most people would give up pretty quickly. That eliminates the whole point.

Yeah, I was thinking about that after I posted. We use them while ice diving, to clip our harness onto the support line. We use them because they're bombproof. I've played with it on the surface (gloves on) and not had much trouble, but I could imagine it being a whole other story long into a dive with cold hands, low viz, and something that needs to be accessed NOW.

I still think they could safely be used for items that need secured without need to access (such as slinging a deco gas), but have instead bought S/S clips. I did this for two reasons:
1) I value consistency in my setup. I'd like to use the same components wherever feasible.
2) Though I believe an active and inquisitive mind is important, I value my instructor's experience and teaching more. At least for my first few years in the tech world, I've little reason not to give his judgment more sway.

 

[Lead_carrier]

I used gated clips or carabiners, as did my peers, for over twenty years of wreck diving and never had a problem and neither did anyone I know; but I don't use them now.

Why?


Because it means I don't have every mayfly in diving coming up to me on the boat to lecture me on my 'suicide clips'

Aww, have some fun. Get 2 or 3, glue them shut so the won't open and tie them prominently to the from of your bc. Then when the mayflys come by for the lecture, offer to lend them a few.

 

[Thalassamania]

Dude, go back to the first sentence. Try to read the whole thing this time.

The real point here is not nadwidny or my foolishness as to what clip you choose, it’s that anyone can have bad day and you always need to be on the lookout for that. You need to be willing to abort a dive that starts off wrong rather than try and make up time. Many NE Wreck Divers want to blame Ormsby’s death on a clip because then they can rest safe that they know what happened and they can avoid his fate by not using the same clip. This is wrong headed, IMO. The rest is just kool-aid induced psychosis.

Yes, the clip may have contributed to his demise, maybe not, but Ormsby would have been just as dead had he not been wearing those clips, because he was having a bad day, he failed to recognize it and he pressed on anyway. A prescription for tragedy on any technical dive.

BTW: I do not use gate-clips on my gear, I do use them on lines hanging from the boat for gear. I use bolt snaps when there is no real load and spinnaker shackles where there is a significant load or a need for an "embergency" release.

 

[Marvel]

****Mod Post****

Gentle people. This thread has been reported several times because of the verbiage that has been employed by participants while making somewhat passionate arguments for, & against, gate clips; as well as whether or not they were responsible for John Ormby's death. I am the third staff person who has taken action in this thread. Many of you will see that some of your posts have been edited to remove what has been deemed personalized arguments, insults & baiting- with a couple of language violations thrown in for good measure. I have attempted to retain the flavor of everyone's arguments through edits,rather than deletions. Some posts were deemed to be beyond salvaging & have been deleted.

While it is perfectly acceptable to argue your POV passionately, it is not acceptable to allow that passion to spill into insults against those with whom you disagree with. The context in which a comment is made is a contributing factor when the staff is reviewing a reported post or thread. Please be aware that continued disrespectful posting in this thread will ultimately result in its closure & possibly consequences for those who disregard the ToS.

I am not going to PM the parties whose posts were edited or deleted- I am sure that you will all be visiting again. Should anyone have any questions, please feel free to send me a PM.

****Mod Post****​