Stop steering new divers in North America towards DIN regulators

[2airishuman]

So, the DIN connection between the regulator and valve is great, many advantages over yoke, let's get some of them out of the way:
1) no problems with o-ring blowout during a dive
2) physically stronger connection more able to withstand a collision with a solid object
3) diver can't mistake valve knob for regulator attachment knob
4) connection does not tend to come loose during a dive even if tank valve is shut and connection is unpressurized
5) can support higher pressures up to 300 bar

Most of my regs and tanks are DIN.

The problem is that, in North America, dive ops that cater to recreational divers, especially ones who cater to newer divers, have rental cylinders that are yoke. In my experience most of these are yoke only valves, not the "pro valve" style with the removable slug. I'll mention a few specifics I've run into without naming specific shops:

1) I dove with a large dive op in Key West, all rental cylinders were yoke only
2) I dove with another dive op in Key West, cylinders had pro valves, divemaster was willing to remove the slugs but had to go to the shop for a hex key to do it
3) I dove with a dive op in Islamorada, choice of AL80s with yoke only and air, or HP100s with DIN and 32%
4) I dove with the dive concession in Pennekamp State Park, cylinders were yoke only
5) My local dive club shares cylinders among members on a no-fee courtesy basis, but only one member has any DIN cylinders (besides me)
6) Of the three local (Minnesota) dive shops I've visited, none routinely rents cylinders with DIN valves

I think it does a disservice to encourage new divers to get DIN regulators when they'll end up using the yoke adapter 90% of the time -- which they will, unless they're in cave country, or buy their own cylinders, or are diving with more sophisticated, high-end operators.

 

[Caveeagle]

How long ago were your Keys trips?

I dove this year in West Palm (Jan) and Jupiter (Feb), and both shops had convertible pro valves on ALL tanks that I saw.

Are you suggesting that its a safety issue to use a DIN/Yoke adapter? Sure there is an extra o-ring, but your getting an extra 0-ring anyway when you have the Yoke slug in a convertible valve.

I guess I just don't see the problem, but then.. I started out diving with Poseidon regs, which came DIN w Yoke adapters.

And.. I don't think I ever encouraged any new divers to seek out DIN regs. Only that I would not avoid options (Like HOG) that might seem to be available as DIN only. (although some suggest they can be ordered in Yoke to).

 

[scubadada]

I have DIN regulators, use my yoke adapter when needed, no big deal

 

[tbone1004]

problem is there aren't any "bang for buck" regs in DIN unless when you call the mentioned online retailers about the Dive Rite regs you ask for them in yoke. The main thing is the future is all convertible pro valves. The shops without them are still using their old tanks which there is nothing wrong with, but all the new stuff is being sold as pro valves. Yoke valves are superior for rental operations, they don't go out of round when dropped, and the filling process is much easier, but the issue as mentioned before is the yoke regs are being sold for ridiculous amounts of money, and anyone buying their own tanks will be likely buying pro valves. DIN regs can be used on yoke valves, yoke regs can only be used on yoke valves. Why limit yourself? Yes the adapters can be annoying, but there isn't anything inherently wrong with it and until someone starts marketing regs that are affordable in yoke, we'll keep recommending the good deals on the din regs

 

[Got2Go]

I'd rather people use the better system. The more people use DIN, the more likely Ops will be incentivized to change.

Whats better? VHS or Beta?

 

[2airishuman]

How long ago were your Keys trips?

I dove this year in West Palm (Jan) and Jupiter (Feb), and both shops had convertible pro valves on ALL tanks that I saw.

April of this year.

Are you suggesting that its a safety issue to use a DIN/Yoke adapter? Sure there is an extra o-ring, but your getting an extra 0-ring anyway when you have the Yoke slug in a convertible valve.

Not a safety issue. I'm suggesting that it's not helpful to new divers. Sure, yoke adapters work, but they are relatively heavy, and using them is an extra step unless you're going to leave them on the reg all the time and bring a yoke cap.

I have DIN regulators, use my yoke adapter when needed, no big deal

My situation also. But there's only a benefit when you encounter DIN valves at least some of the time.

problem is there aren't any "bang for buck" regs in DIN unless when you call the mentioned online retailers about the Dive Rite regs you ask for them in yoke.

I submit for your consideration:
- HOG D1 for which any HOG dealer can order and install the yoke kit
- Used conshelf XVIs, conshelf SEs, and titans, the supply of which will not dry up in our lifetimes, and which are a bargain even if you have to pay to have them serviced.

The main thing is the future is all convertible pro valves. The shops without them are still using their old tanks which there is nothing wrong with, but all the new stuff is being sold as pro valves. Yoke valves are superior for rental operations, they don't go out of round when dropped, and the filling process is much easier,

Not sure I believe that. There are still yoke valves being made. There are still places buying tanks with yoke valves by the pallet for their rental operations. This is unlikely to change for exactly the reason you specify. Pro valves are fine for the individual diver but in a dive op environment the slugs get corroded and galled. Pro valves are still more expensive than yoke in quantity and when someone buys 100 cylinders a year it adds up.

DIN regs can be used on yoke valves, yoke regs can only be used on yoke valves. Why limit yourself?

The average diver can dive for a lifetime without encountering a situation where the only cylinders readily available are DIN cylinders.

I'd rather people use the better system.

But they don't. They use the adapter, so it's still yoke.

The more people use DIN, the more likely Ops will be incentivized to change.

I don't think it's fair to n00b divers who come here for advice, to use them to try to force dive ops to change.

Whats better? VHS or Beta?

Taking that one step further, there was certainly a point in the late 1970s where AV nerds were steering n00bs toward beta even though it was moribund, as a way of trying to change the world to their preferred standard.

 

[Compressor]

DIN versus Yoke. They will both be around forever. DIN valves are abundant: You have to look for them.

 

[MaxBottomtime]

I carry a yoke adapter when on vacation. When at home I have been diving DIN for two decades.

 

[bt7csr]

This sounds a bit more like lack of research before purchase, and buyer's remorse.

I was fully aware of the yoke/din pros and cons as I did a great deal of research prior to purchase - both online and talking with divers much more experienced than I(including multiple dive shops). My decision was based both on the diving I want to do eventually, and the risks associated with both options, as well as price point. I went DIN, and I don't have an adapter for yoke. But, I was also aware that I would eventually (sooner rather than later) buy my own cylinders. (I hate renting anything). I even bought the regulators that a certain dive shop repeatedly recommended I not buy! (because it was THEIR best interest that I not buy it - they didn't carry that brand, no valid reason why I should buy the brand they sell - at more than twice the price!!). I will admit that the first time I rented a cylinder yoke was the only option, but I knew the guy and he let me use his personal cylinder as it was set for DIN. Another shop missed another rental opportunity because they only had yoke, as well.

I definitely understand the point the OP makes, even if I believe it's my job, and no one else's, to make sure I'm aware of the issues that may arise after my choice of purchase.

My two cents: figure out what you know, figure out what you don't know, and then figure out what you don't know you don't know. Then make decision accordingly.

 

[2airishuman]

This sounds a bit more like lack of research before purchase, and buyer's remorse.

To be clear, I'm happy with my setup. I knew I was going to be buying my own cylinders.

The point is that there are other people coming to Scubaboard for advice, who don't understand the tradeoffs.