Sport Chalet Instruction...new rules

[Thalassamania]

"Most" instructors intend to do a good job as "good" is defined based on their own training and the standards they teach to.

True enough, no one wants to do a &#8220;bad&#8221; job. But most instructors, through no fault of their own (well their fault is in not heeding the likes of you and me<G>) are clueless about what &#8220;good&#8221; is, or what &#8220;good&#8221; can be, or what &#8220;good&#8221; will coast. For example, is it &#8220;good&#8221; for all students to be able to hold their breath for 90 seconds in comfort? I&#8217;d say, &#8220;yes, it&#8217;s good.&#8221; You&#8217;d likely do the same. But when I bring that thought to &#8220;most&#8221; instructors they either think that it is impossible or, if the are intrigued and I explain the process, they don&#8217;t have time to teach it within the 18 hr, course structure and still meet all the other required training outcomes.

Personally, I don't think it makes much sense to score instructors until we score the standards they teach to. A good instructor applies those standards as they were taught...that would probably be a functional definition of "good" in an instructor evaluation. Unfortunately what we see is that the perfect application of training standards still results in a certified diver who can barely dive...it's not the instructors fault...it's the standards. In real estate they say "location, location, location. In dive training it's "the standards, the standards, the standards"

And the standards continue to drop and drop and drop. And &#8220;good&#8221; instructors have no idea of what divers used to be trained to do, or how they were trained to do it, all they know is what their I.T.s told them. It&#8217;s sort of like the new divers&#8217; views on equipment discussion, the new instructor is clueless because the I.T. is clueless because the I.T.T. was clueless, because the standards were reduced because they needed a shorter course, because &#8230; the emperor realy is naked.

 

[MikeFerrara]

But I am not the majority, I am not the future. Computer reliance in diving is the future. HUDs are the future. And Pete, as an instructor, you are smart for embracing a future that a few of us, who enjoy a different way, will not be able to stop.

What is the future of diving really? Increasingly, diving is a tourist activity and many divers go their whole diving career content not knowing much more than how to follow of listen to the DM. Most of these folks get up and running pretty quick. They do an OW course, maybe an AOW for greater access with fewer going much past that. For many their diving will be pretty static.

Others are going to want to be more independant and who could know where their diving will take them. I baught computers only to find out that the ones I baught weren't much good for dives where I needed multiple gasses. I baught different computers only to find out they weren't going to be any good for when I used gasses other than air or nitrox. I started with tables, went to computers and ended up back at tables but with the addition of decompression software and other methods.

Dive training has always tended to key-hole divers and I think that's an increasing trend.

 

[CompuDude]

as far as i know SDI doesn't teach table in OW either, but computer diving instead. Their nitrox class definitely has no tables, based on diving with a computer.

I haven't looked at a table in about the last 4800 dives or so....

Gee, I took an SDI (actually, TDI) Nitrox class about 6 months ago, and I have a table in my bag that came with my class. Are you sure about that?

I can't speak for their OW class, but they definitely have tables for use in their Nitrox class.

 

[The Chairman]

That's correct, TDI brings out the tables, while SDI sticks with using a computer.

 

[CompuDude]

While SSI does promote a home study portion prior to the classroom, I am not aware of an online/computer based/distance learning program in development. Seeing how distance learning can be successful in other fields, however, I would not necessarily be averse to this.

editing for clarification

As a dive shop manager, I don't like any system that keeps prospective divers from coming into my storefront. That said, if a distance/online classroom can impart the necessary information I think it will continue to produce equivalently safe students for pool work and open water testing.

I think SDI is the agency that has a true internet-based portion (merely a variation of home study) of their OW class. They still have pool and open water portions, of course. My LDS offers this.

I prefer instructor-based face-to-face instruction, however, and although I know there are some who genuinely are motivated enough and self-disciplined to do as well or better with home-based instruction, there are way too many people who would use it as a shortcut to get away with the minimum amount of learning possible (if that). Compare internet traffic school for an example. (An idea I LOVE, but I wouldn't recommend it for scuba.)

As far as tables are concerned... I still think they are handy. No batteries needed, truly waterproof, crush-proof, travel easier than any computer, and will never, ever crash. I rarely use them, but at least twice this year I did pull them out (on dry land) and glance over some numbers to give me some ballpark figures for determining what dives I wanted to do and in which order. Could I have done the same with my computer? Sure, but it would have taken a ton of button pushes and a LOT more time.

Tables have their place, even if they have been 99% replaced by computers. I think spending perhaps 5 minutes in class is well worth the time. They barely spend any time on them today as it is, but I some is better than none.

I fully trust calculators (and computers), but for an easy glance at an overall picture, nothing beats a table.

 

[DandyDon]

This reminds me of when vehicle engine computers came out. How many remember manually setting timing & carburetor? Spraying the distributor cap with Water Displacement-40 (WD40)? Gapping our own plugs.

Wish I had my first adding machine, with the hand crank.

Gawd, in nearly 60s years of my life, what has the computer not made better. Thank you JFK for the moon program...!

 

[Jorbar1551]

Is the computer fool proof if you know how to read it?

Has anyone gotten in trouble using a computer correctly?

 

[JahJahwarrior]

Dhaas:
yeah, I realized you weren't bashing me. Some people have written me off as an idiot though, even though they've got bouyancy theory backwards. "negatively bouyant...it'll float, right?" (my instructor had them backwards at the beginning of the class! I questioned him about it and we debated it for several minutes before he realized he was wrong.)

I want to contest you figure of even 90% of divers having and using computers. How many divers do you think dive ontheir own, versus how many dive with a DM? Because I'd say that possibly 50% of those that dive with a DM don't have a computer or a table. They simply follow the profile the DM tells them to. On a diveboat I was on with a cruise ship last week, there were 24 dives. Of them, maybe 5 were people that dived often (one was an instructor even). The other 19 either hadn't dived in multiple years or dived occasionally with a DM. 5 of the people on the boat had computers. The other 19 didn't have a comptuer or a table. I think that perhaps 80% of people that dive frequently have a computer, and potentially 90% of people that dive frequently and have been diving for more than a year have a computer. I say this because people that don't dive frequently probably won't even hve all of their own gear, and people that do dive alot but haven't been diving long aren't as likely to own all of their equipment yet, even so, most people buy a wetsuit, BC and regs before buying a computer. I think possibly half of the people in the world with a C card have a computer.

netdoc: I'd be more than happy to help score my instructors! I went through four of them and one DM! (first one visited family after the first pool session, second one got sick during first OW dive, so the DM went over some basic skills with us and then another instructor finished with the AOW class he was teaching, so he finished out the first OW day with us. The next day we were certified under our fourth instructor (or fifth if you counted the DM), who was fortunately our final one. I think we went through everybody that worked at that shop.

I do like the point that has been brought up: instead of adding computer use, why don't we spend more time focusing on the bouyancy, or rescue skills? Why in the world do we have all these "specialities" in an AOW cert that are really necessary for a good diver?

And while I proved the instructor wrong when he thought I'd worked a table problem wrong (he was so used to using a computer that he had trouble working one of the more complex Padi table problems. He looked at the wrong problem when grading something, I looked it all over and told him that I had the right answer. He did the problem twice and sure enough I was right, it took him two tries because he got it wrong the first time), I'm with Rick Inman in that the last time I used my Padi table was to pry a dryrotted oring out of a tank on a cattleboat dive last week.

And I think the thing that needs to be watched out for is dependenceon the computer. Heck, at Wendy's (used to work there. worst mistake of my life.) the computer shows you PICTURES of the change to give them!!! We had a girl who literally couldn't speak english working a register in the drive through line for a while. Ridiculous. (meanwhile, that wendy's has gone down the drain because they hired idiots who had to look at the pictures and didn't realize when or if they made a mathematical error somewhere).

this is a very interesting thread. at first i thought everyone including me would be against this decision by sport chalet. after reading almost everyone's post, im leading toward the side that tables are a part of the future.

Umh.....even I think computers are the way of the future.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1750823427949463618&q=sun+microsystems+ad&hl=en

 

[dhaas]

JahJajWarrior,

Glad we're Ok.....You are starting your dive career with technology available many here couldn't even have imagined. Embrace it, learn about it and go dive!

I have to laugh at some people talkng about planning their dives down to the exact bottom time and depth with tables. Yeah, the tech crowd (less than 2-3% of all active divers? if that....) switching to 3, 4 or whatever gasses during their 12 minutes bottom time and then long deco might use tables to that extent. But sport divers? I don't think so.....Anyone taking a NITROX course and owning a NITROX capable computer will likely never look at or use those tables included in their course. I don't and won't.....

And as far as all these people talking about actually PLANNING a dive? Hah!!! Not sure what sport diving operation you've been out with this year, but in Australia, Bahamas, Cayman and FLA most divemasters I've been with give a briefing including a ballpark depth (it IS the ocean after all and not some theoretical absolute) and maybe a suggested bottom time. Then all the infrequent or uncomfortable divers jump in and just follow the leader Until they run low on gas, usually LONG before they're out of No-Deco time....

Anyone with minimal experience using a computer knows what max depth they don't want to exceed on a dive. They jump in and monitor their No-Deco time and step up shallower as the dive progresses dependant on remaining gas supply. That's it out there in the real world.....

The real reason we have a high drop out rate IMHO is we think all the clasroom knowledge wil make an enthusiastic scuba diver for life. When the real "hook" is the in water experiences. True weightless of neutral buoyancy, seeing your first turtle, dolphin, shark, beautiful scene or whatever.....People sign up to go dive and get enrolled in a mind-numbing, dragged out dry land session and simply turn off....Sometimes I'm amazed people take to scuba versus buying a mountain bike, snowboarding or some other activity that doesn't have as long a training cycle.

I'm not advocating no classroom knowledge, just flipping it a bit to less dry, more wet training. Thalassamania had it right that being a water person (90 seconds breath hold isn't that hard) making you a better diver. When I started diving you didn't even put ON A TANK until you could snorkel, free dive a bit, show proper fin kicks and such. Today all I see is people swimming around hanging on to the power inflator...Plus kicking the reef stirring up the sand, and as a photographer this is what I use my dive knife for, getting their attention!, JUST KIDDING, folks

So in summary, I don't know....But if PADI or whoever decided to make teaching tables optional, the way they did buddy breathing from one mouthpiece I'd be one of the first to move in that direction. Plus teaching them how to read and use a dive computer safely.....

YMMV

dhaas

 

[Kevrumbo]

Dude... you are way out of line. You don't have to be quite so bombastic or condescending... even if your job depends on studying tables. You don't provide us ANY clinical data to the contrary: just caustic "dumb arse" statements which are the rhetorical equivalent of "Did too!" Give it a rest.

Of all the people you treat, just how many have tables on them when they dive? Do you even keep track of such a thing?

You can ADD to this discussion or just try to be a cyber bully. Your choice.

My choice is to hold YOU to higher standard of competence, since you are the Netdoc as well as an Educator & Instructor. . .

I'm gonna always let you know it when I catch you with your foot in mouth: "I agree with their policy. Why teach people to use something that is obsolete for %95+ of the diving world." C'mon Pete, you know better than to post such rhetorical hoo-hah. . . that was not a very responsible nor informed point to assert. . .