Sport Chalet Instruction...new rules

[sharkattack]

I wouldn't be averse to teaching new divers how to properly use their computers ... but if the industry's going to move in that direction wouldn't it be nice if computer functions, algorithms, and layouts were somewhat standardized?

Let's say you have students showing up in your class with Suunto, Oceanic, Dive Rite, Uwatec and Cochran computers ... what will you be planning to teach them?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I have not had a student show up with any computer. We teach what they will be using for class (the shops computers) We give a copy of the manual too. If they wish to purchase a computer after certification then by all means read the manual and understand how that model works.

 

[dhaas]

Amigos,

First, JahJahWarrior, I wasn't dissing you by mentioning your # of dives. I'm glad you are enjoying the sport!

I was just trying to point out how if an old fart like me who gets to go dive, 3,4 or more trips per year would never dive without a computer I for the life of me don't see why a NEW diver wouldn't want to learn and use a dive computer as their FIRST choice...Especially with what I've seen people diving tables. They don't monitor their maximum depth or time accurately! Most I've seen get TOLD their depth / bottom time by their INSTRUCTOR or GUIDE which kinda' defeats the whole purpose of creating safe, independent divers. Hell, most can't even monitor their gas supply and do a 3 minute safety stop at 15'........Or understand WHY it's likely the most important part of their multi-dive / muti-day dive vacation.

Thassalmania (OK, I give. Are you Bruce Basset? Bill Hamilton or Mike Emmerman? likely has more detailed specifics about Karl Huggins and what he's been up to as far as decompression treatments and study. I would never claim to be an authority on all the studies, etc. that have advanced diving in the last 30+ years. I have the 1988 Dive Computer Proceedings book, from Catalina Island and while I will never claim to be a researcher or scientist, I know what I see out their in the active diving world. Someone (maybe the late John Hardy) said the bottom line is divers WANT computers and hence manufacturers will keep designing and selling them. I know when I got my EDGE and went to the Caymans it was MORE exciting than that first breath on scuba.....

Kevrumbo may use tables and being in an environment where they are commonplace, but I'll bet as NetDoc states 90% (if not more) of divers plunging in around his island are using a dive computer. Hell, he lives in California where Pelagic Systems (division of Oceanic still?) made bazillions of those hockey puck computers at lower and lower prices. If you buy a depth gauge and 200M depth Casio or Timex watch you've spent as much $$$$ as a low end dive computer.

As far as standardized teaching of computers with different algorithms and tolerances there are still similarites. All dive computers calculate DYNAMICALLY your depth, bottom time and remaining no-decompression time. Plus all have some form of ASCENT WARNINGS, Decompression Displays and CEILING ALARMS, all common pieces of data displayed on all computers. NITROX settings are one other factor I believe should be taught and understood by NEW divers.

In case you think I hate dive tbles, I just cleaned out my office closet over the weekend. One thing along with old dive logbooks I kept were my collection of dive tables. PADI RDP, the Wheel, NAUI Nu-Way Tables. Canadian DCIEM tables, and more....They're fun to look at and I can still calculate square dive profiles, even overstaying my no-deco time like we did in the 1970s+ and then using the standard Navy Decompression tables when we first started doing 3, 4 or more repetitive dives per day. But would I use them today? Heck no.....

A good discussion......

David Haas

P.S. - I did a Decompression Dive with Dr. Somers (having lunch at Lums afterward which really was just to keep people around in case they had to stuff you back in the chamber after a true 165' deceompression dive.) I also was originally certified as a YMCA Insructor WAAAYYY back when Dan Orr (of DAN!) ran the Wright State University Scuba Program. Been around enough to know a few players, just never pursued it much further. But I still find that those who embrace changes rather than cling to old ways advance an activity....

P.P.S. - I participate with a group of "Vintage Divers' who locate, rebuild and actually dive with 1950 - 1970 era gear. It's a hoot, and many (including me!) actually will wear a dive computer as their only modern gear

 

[The Chairman]

Really now? When you say something that strikes me as odd, I generally wonder what I'm doing wrong, but I encourage newbie friends to learn their computers by studying the manual extensively and running a lot of simulated dive drills until they know what it's saying on every drill.

Don, while I require my students to read their Dive Manual, I don't think that teaches them the skills of diving. In the same vein, reading a manual on how to set & operate their DC does not give them the skills needed to be functional with one. There are quite a few similarities among DCs

Time down
Current Depth
Maximum Depth
Remaining Bottom time (at that depth)
Ascent Rate
Ceiling (if you deco'ed)
Safety Stop

These are pretty common features for a DC, and I am not sure I would recommend buying one without these key features in it. If you are diving a computer and ONLY know one or two of these functions, you are diving blind. Best to learn to use them from the beginning. Sure, it's just a tool, but you don't need to use it as a hammer. Use it for the tool that it is.

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't understand what the big deal is, a dive computer is nothing but an animated set of tables, this was observed back at the Catalina meeting, the critical question is not electronic vs. (paper of plastic) but rather what is taught along with it.

This is what it boils down to, isn't it?

Pete is probably right. 98 out of 100 divers are probably using a computer. That same 98 out of 100 are also probably incorrectly weighted, poorly balanced, out of trim with sloppy equipment and making a mess out of the environment they dive in. The issue of whether they start with tables or a computer is so far down the list as to be a nonissue. If the industry wanted to make an improvement they'd start teaching people how to control their positioning and movement through the water. What are the chances that we'll be seeing that?

When we look at how diving has been taught we see that some agencies don't even require open water students to have a timming device. They get out of the water and ask the instructor or DM for their bottom time and SI so they can put a PG in their log after the fact. Heck, my classes were done the same way for a time because that's how I was taught to teach it. Is it some kind of mystery that divers show up on vacation and don't use tables? Heck, they didn't really use them in their training...they got the numbers from the instructor.

Now these same pillars of wisdom have decided to improve things by teaching computers from the start...no matter.

 

[MikeFerrara]

Don, while I require my students to read their Dive Manual, I don't think that teaches them the skills of diving. In the same vein, reading a manual on how to set & operate their DC does not give them the skills needed to be functional with one. There are quite a few similarities among DCs

Time down
Current Depth
Maximum Depth
Remaining Bottom time (at that depth)
Ascent Rate
Ceiling (if you deco'ed)
Safety Stop

These are pretty common features for a DC, and I am not sure I would recommend buying one without these key features in it. If you are diving a computer and ONLY know one or two of these functions, you are diving blind. Best to learn to use them from the beginning. Sure, it's just a tool, but you don't need to use it as a hammer. Use it for the tool that it is.

As I see it that list is just some of the things we address in dive planning. If one can plan a dive and execute that plan they can interchangable apply either a table, computer or even decompression software to their dive planning. It could me a new table, a new computer or even a new piece of decompression software but if one knows how to plan and track a dive, a good read of the manual for that specific tool does the trick.

As I see it the problem isn't that we haven't been teaching computers. The problem is that we do a poor job of teaching dive planning.

 

[The Chairman]

That same 98 out of 100 are also probably incorrectly weighted, poorly balanced, out of trim with sloppy equipment and making a mess out of the environment they dive in.

Surely you aren't equating the use of a computer with a lack of diving skills? This is precisely why I like the on-line training methods: it gives me more time to hone the in-water skills.

Unlike yourself, I feel that MOST dive instructors want to turn out a quality diver. If they are shown how, they will succeed. ScubaBoard is currently contemplating a methodology where we can score instructors. Watch for an announcement in January or February.

 

[under water]

Interesting thread.
I believe that use of computers should be taught, in addition to a few calculations of SIT, max depth, time etc using tables (or a calculator). However, isn't the trend to keep shortening the training, not adding things.
I wonder how many of the '98%' of continuing divers that use computers (not those folk that sell their gear after 4 dives) use the computer in any mode other than
-let the water turn it on
-look at it for depth and maybe check it for Nitrogen loading and ascent rate every now & again?
How many people actually put it into planning mode to see what kind of profile they could use on their next dive.
How many people reading this use a computer to help PLAN a dive?
I don't think most people will have computers during OW training so using them for exercises will not work unless the LDS supplies loaners. If they did this, can you imagine the leverage that they would have on which computer a person would buy after their training!

Are there any standards between DCs that would allow you to teach generic DC skills?

 

[MikeFerrara]

Surely you aren't equating the use of a computer with a lack of diving skills? This is precisely why I like the on-line training methods: it gives me more time to hone the in-water skills.

No, I'm not equating computer use with poor dive skills. I am, however, equating that failure to teach dive planning with the failure to teach all the other skills that are often poor.

Unlike yourself, I feel that MOST dive instructors want to turn out a quality diver. If they are shown how, they will succeed. ScubaBoard is currently contemplating a methodology where we can score instructors. Watch for an announcement in January or February.

Aside from being uncomfortable using the term "most" I would agree. "Most" instructors intend to do a good job as "good" is defined based on their own training and the standards they teach to.

Personally, I don't think it makes much sense to score instructors until we score the standards they teach to. A good instructor applies those standards as they were taught...that would probably be a functional definition of "good" in an instructor evaluation. Unfortunately what we see is that the perfect application of training standards still results in a certified diver who can barely dive...it's not the instructors fault...it's the standards. In realastate they say "location, location, location. In dive training it's "the standards, the standards, the standards"

 

[Rick Inman]

Pete, you are a smart man.

No matter what GUE teaches, computers are here to stay. To me, the only thing worse then mindlessly letting the computer lead your dive, is seeing all these "computer divers" who don't even know what the thing is telling them.

You aren't trying to stop the tide from coming in with one hand (impossible), but have turned around and started paddling with the swell. In the end, you will easily ride right in. At least if all these divers are coming out of the classes with a card in one hand and a computer in the other, you are teaching them how to use it.

I believe, for better or worse, computer diving is the future (heck, it's really the now) and right or wrong, the majority of divers are not going to be taught to think outside of them. If a diver insists on diving the computer, the best thing they can do is take your computer class so at least they know how to use it.

The dependence on the computers is what's interesting - like a cashier who can't make change without the digital readout. I'm schlepping for my instructor friend right now as he teaches a few of my buddies an Advanced Nitrox/Deco class. You should have seen the looks on there faces when he said they had to dive their computers in gauge mode. You'd think he'd had told them they had to hold their breath for the whole class (actually, for some of it, they will. ).

I dive for the enjoyment of diving, and for me, the safer I feel I am, and the better my skills, the more I enjoy it. Being safer and working my skills, for me, includes my brain and understanding where I am during the dive and why. I really enjoy the idea that my gauges are just a backup for my brain. I like looking at my SPG and knowing what it will say before I see it (and my buddy's, too). I like knowing my time and depth in my head and just using the gauges as a backup to it. I like knowing how long I can be at whatever depth I am in the dive in my head. And I like knowing the "why" (or, continuing to learn it, because there are information layers upon information layers of knowledge for me to still learn). For me, this is more fun, and I dive for fun.

But I am not the majority, I am not the future. Computer reliance in diving is the future. HUDs are the future. And Pete, as an instructor, you are smart for embracing a future that a few of us, who enjoy a different way, will not be able to stop.

BTW, I used my PADI table just this last Saturday. When we came back to the dock, there was snow all over my truck, and I used it to scrape the window.

 

[Jorbar1551]

this is a very interesting thread. at first i thought everyone including me would be against this decision by sport chalet. after reading almost everyone's post, im leading toward the side that tables are a part of the future.

i think as a back up, that all divers should now how to plan a basic dive on tables. while i was traveling in mexico, i was not rented a computer, just a depth gauge, spg and i used my watch to figure out when it was time to come up. these dives were my first dives after my ow class. if we had not had an experienced person leading these dives, i probably would've had to follow my tables or go until the air runs out.