Should an instructor or agency be able to decertify divers?

[Drewski]

A few thoughts on this thread:

I seriously doubt any certifying agency would consider "yanking" certification cards for "bad" divers. They would need to come up with some "standard" to use to do this and then APPLY it. It's this application part that creates LIABILITY. For example, "Joe Diver" goes diving, is a menace, and "John Instructor," who saw what Joe was doing, yanks his card. "Jane Diver," another "substandard" diver on the same trip doesn’t get her card yanked because John was focused on Joe, not Jane. A few weeks later Jane dives a wall at Grand Cayman and just keeps going. Upset that he will never get to see his wife again, Jane's husband is angry. He finds out that Joe got his card yanked but Jane DIDN'T. Why wasn't that instructor "with" it enough to recognize his wife's deficiencies on the SAME trip Joe was on? BAD instructor! Time to call the lawyers...

Fixing "substandard" divers is not that easy. It involves not only training, but mentoring and getting "appropriate" diving experience as well. I think BSAC in the UK probably has a better grip on this than the "hands off" stuff we do in the USA. Check out the BSAC page on "Safety" and how well laid out their safety planning is. Of course the Brits also thought the National Health Service was the best thing since sliced bread, so maybe this is more "talk" then "walk?" Giving BSAC the benefit of the doubt, however, it looks like a VERY well laid out approach. Also realize that BSAC sets the standards for the entire COUNTRY. Other certifying agencies are allowed, but divers still need to meet BSAC requirements. Would it work in the USA? Probably not, because the very same people on this board who complain about "bad" divers would probably complain that all these standards will make stuff too "hard" and shouldn't apply to THEM because THEY don't have problems... WHINE WHINE WHINE....

As far as "new" divers go, keep in mind the 16 year old "new DRIVER." Even though they go through a bunch of training, tests and then licensing, they STILL have the highest accident rates. It takes EXPERIENCE in the real world to make the difference, and then keeping that experience at a level of par compared to your diving. Expiring certification cards might work, provided the re-certification process was well-laid out and reasonable. Also, ALL agencies would have to do it, because if one didn't it would create problems.

Finally, INSTRUCTORS. It used to be that certifying instructors was an AGENCY level thing, NOT a SHOP level process. Instructor "training courses" were taught over the period of one or two weeks, involved senior instructors from the region and an ITC "director" who represented the agency. It was NOT money driven or controlled by a single interest, so a number of participants who tried sometimes FAILED. Now, it seems if you pay the fee the shop level ITC will eventually "get you through." This is probably why we have so many instructors and instructor pay is LOW.

Regardless of if you agree with me or not (and I certainly appreciate it if you DON'T), keep in mind that "fixing" the "problem" requires MORE regulation. And we all know how Americans respond to MORE regulation... !!!

Just my HUMBLE opinion...

 

[Gil57usa]

A certification is given to a student who completes a course to the satisfaction of the Instructor. If there are Divers who don't have even the basic skills, this is a reflection on the Instructor. I think it is up to the certifying agency to oversee their Instructors and the shops they work out of to insure a consistant high standard of instruction.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Actually, the process for instructors is already there. If something occurs (death, injury, complaints from students, etc.) the agency can investigate the instructor and make a ruling as suspension or banning them from teaching for that agency.

Aslo, word-of-mouth and internet reviews are a powerful "de-certifying" force for the students. Granted, this is attacking the business side of diving more than the instructor, but it will affec the instructor.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. I filed a complaint against an instructor who was flagrantly violating standards. The complaint was filed with the LDS and the certifying agency. The instructor is still teaching for that LDS. And I'm sure he's still violating standards!

 

[fisherdvm]

There are thousands of incompetent doctors, lawyers, judges, plumbers, mechanics, etc. who still maintain their licenses or degrees. These people can hurt others if they were allowed to practice.

However, scuba divers just hurt themselves, and rarely others... If you can not regulate professionals who impact the lives of others, why should we care that much if PADI and others don't revoke certifications.

 

[shakeybrainsurgeon]

so here is my 2 cents worth.......

first off any diver can be a train wreck on any given day depending on the circumstances. For instance even the best diver is apt to get a little spooked the first time they see a shark or whale underwater. this nervousness can lead to either panic or it could just cause the diver to forget some of the stuff that they learned in the basic course.

second of all the basic owsd course offered from the LDS will just certify a diver to the point that he/she is safe to enter the water with a buddy and dive to a marginal depth and return to the surface safe. Every diver should constantly strive to improve their skils and increase their training level.

The way that I propose to deal with a diver that seems dangerous/inept underwater is to not dive with that person and tell your friends to not dive with him eventually he will have no one to dive with and them he will have to find an instructor to help him with his skills.

this way there is no yanking of 'c' cards and there is still a chance that they will get the extra help that they need.

besides if we start yanking 'c' cards for poor skills we will ahve to instate the scuba police. If poor skill result in a yanked card what are the penalties for: diving a little deeper than you are rated; losing your buddy underwater; poor equiptment maintainence; etc. etc. etc.



as a side note to the guy that was talking about the rouses last dive. You have to realize that while it is no big deal for someone who is certified now to go to most lds and get a trimix fill it just was not as available back then. It was also prohibitivly (sp.) expensive. Add that to the fact that while trimix diving was starting to become the standard for deep diving, air was still the primary gas mix of choice This accident took place in a time when we were just starting to work out the fine details of what gasses worked best at what depths and what the correct decompression profiles for deep diving should be. In most cases there were no standard decompression table available for trimix diving and each person had to get someone like Dr. Hamilton to specifically 'cut' as set of tables for each specific deptha nd each specific gas mix to be used. This was also done at great expense.

I know only what I read about the events depicted in The Last Dive...whether poor judgement was used is a matter of opinion in that particular case (but if it takes something you can't afford to do a dive safely, then it's a dive you probably can't afford IMHO, but what do I know?); my only point was: pulling C cards for lack of skills is a slippery slope that could be extended to lack of judgement as well. If someone makes a poor judgement, but, through luck or heroism, survives, should we yank their card? And what standard do we judge "skills" or "judgement"? And who has the authority to yank a card? If we give every PADI instructor the power to pull a PADI card of some stranger, it will turn dive sites into fear-filled police states...is that guy watching me an instructor?

I say the present system (permanent C card, but refresher courses required after long absences) seems OK. In medicine, re-certifications haven't made things safer, they only act as cash cows for certifying agencies.

 

[fisherdvm]

In medicine, re-certifications haven't made things safer, they only act as cash cows for certifying agencies.

I tend to disagree. Fulfilling the CME requirement for the state is easy to do, but does not do enough for me to keep up.

It is that once every 10 year recert that makes me keep on my toe, and read my books from cover to cover.

As an example, when I was in Iowa, they required CME for me to maintain my vet license. I spend hours each months to earn credit and keep up. Back in MI, now, I am grandfathered in, and have to do squat of CME for my vet license... Guess what, don't ask me for any opinions concerning your dog.

But the requirement yearly testing in emergency medicine certainly is keeping my brother, the ER doc on his toes in the ER... My testing is only once every 10 years, and I can tell you, the old docs who don't have to sit for the test are not as sharp as the younger ones.

Actually, a study done in the NEJM noted that younger doctors are better at diagnosis than older ones..... Probably becuz the older ones think that experience is more important than studing for the recert exam....

However, you might be correct in the surgical field, where manual dexterity is probably more important than cerebral skill....

 

[DiverBeth]

I have to agree with ScubaWally in avoiding bad divers and letting others know. I know there are bad divers out there but maybe peer pressure will motivate them to improve their skills.

 

[TimAZ]

Why do so many folks want to control other people? Live your own life, let others live theirs.

AMEN!

 

[MikeFerrara]

In either case, professional certs, whether required by an employer or by law, are for the protection of others. Diving is a sport or hobby. While I would sure like to see better dive training (recertification can't be anything other than a joke as long as training is such a joke) and better divers, our proficiency really isn't anybodies business other than our own and our buddies.

If dive site owners, dive boat owners or whatever want to institute whatever checks they think are appropriate for the protection of their interests, that's fine. As long as it doesn't have to adverse an effect on the bang/buck equation, I'll go along.

What I am sure of though is this...I have all the certs I need, I don't want to teach anymore and I am pretty determined to never spend another cent with any certification agency.

 

[DHMO Diver]

If a state agency (DMV) with clear requirements for performance (laws) and an enforcement arm (police) can't control the out-of-control drivers; what chance do we have with multiple agencies (the alphabet) with various requirements (instructor evaluation) and no enforcement agency stand with "out-of-control" divers?

I actually got out my c-card and read what it says. "This diver has satisfactorily met the standards for this certification level as set forth by..." and the agency name. All this means is that someone (my instructor) felt that I met the minimum standards of his agency and that I was less of a danger than someone with no training. (My instructor was a good teacher, followed the rules and made sure that I was properly trained, as they all should).

As such, all that this card says is that 'once upon a time I got some training'. Regardless of my current skill, training, practice, etc. that is all.

You can't take that away from me.....Catchy song title...