Should an instructor or agency be able to decertify divers?

[Scuba Brian]

I dont think you should be able to to pull certs. ,but enforcing a refresher for people who have been away for a period on time would be acceptable. Also i think the problem with some divers being poor is because the instructor doesnt have the guts or patience to tell a student he/she needs more time in the pool perfecting their skills. I have had several students do extra pool time. I never want someone i certify to be the guy on the boat who the others say, " who certified that idiot!". So poor skills= poor or lazy instruction.
Just my 2 cents

 

[fishb0y]

So how would you enforce this 'mandatory refresher'? Are you gonna make some guy who's been diving for 40 years but has never once owned a logbook dive in your theoretical ocean?

Diving is not a licensed activity... the worst thing that could happen is to put the industry under a government agency.

 

[ArcticDiver]

And whose standards and instructors would rule? PADI, YMCA, NACD, NAUI, GUE.....?
You see the point? There is very little standardization between agencies. They all teach similar things; but with their own little twists. SCUBA is a diverse hobby that has room for all kinds of people with different philosophies of diving.

Why even think of this? Is there some crying need for skill review that isn't being met by the current system? Are there divers being injured and killed on a wholesale basis that would justify changing the system? From all we know today injuries and deaths are rare, according to DAN.

In short; if it ain't broke don't "fix" it. If you think it is broke prove it with some casualty statistics, not some subjective comment that scuba divers aren't proficient. Just because a diver ain't pretty is no proof the diver is unsafe.

 

[Scuba Brian]

No dont fix what isnt broke, but divers who have been out of the water for many years are a potential hazard. I was on a boat this spring and the divers could hardly remember how to assemble their gear. So what would be wrong with a refresher in this case? They obviously were rusty, how many other skills had they forgotten?

 

[ArcticDiver]

How hard is it really to have one log filled out and signed every year or so. We teach how to fill out log books. Who was talking government agency? this could be done by the industry. Seriously do you want to take a guy out who hasn't donned his equipment for 5 plus years and be responsible for him? I'd at least like to see him in a scuba review or submerge with him and watch his bouyancy and diving ability before we went out, but thats just my feelings.

I have added some emphasis.

You are entitled to your feelings. In the current system you are not forced to dive with the person. In fact, no one is required to dive with anyone else. So, don't. Plus, as a fellow diver I'm not so sure the law requires me, or you as a diver(not as an instructor), to be responsible for my "buddy". Certainly my ethics require me to do everything I can to save my buddy if there is an emergency. But that is different than a legal requirement.

I just don't see the extrapolation from your feelings to setting a new industry wide standard. Especially a standard that would open a real can-of-worms conflict between agencies and divers with different philosophies.

In reality I suspect the kind of individual you mention would probably seek out a refresher before doing much of anything. If they are diving off a dive boat most of the questionaires already ask about recent experience. I've seen DMs and Captains "suggest" that the prospective diver have a refresher. So, the current system is working. Why change it?

 

[Ted S]

We all need to keep in mind that the vast majority of divers are infrequent, recreational divers. Unfortunately most of these individuals (of which I could be classified at times) do not take the time to so much as think about diving or re-certification. The fact is, people go on a trip, get certified, dive a few times and stop. A year or two later, and sometimes many years later, they go diving again. As a result many people would be up for re-certification just about every time they dive, which isn't going to keep people diving.

As I see it, the most feasible solution is instructors who help their students understand the dangers of the sport, and the steps necessary to be safe. A well trained, or at least well informed diver should know that a long lapse in diving necessitates a refresher or at least diving with an instructor/ dm. Boats and resorts can also help in the process without forcing people who want to do a casual dive to produce documentation that they may not care to have (logbooks are after all optional last I checked). I've been on boats where anyone without recent dive experience was more or less forced to do an intro dive until they passed a visual inspection.

Lastly we, as informed divers can have an impact. Rather than just talking to our own buddies or taking a "it's not my business stance", when you're out on a boat or talking to another diver and they mention their experience, or lack thereof, remind them about the importance of refreshers. We've all been around someone who hasn't dove in years but can't wait to jump back in, and even if we can't stop that individual, we can take a few moments to remind them of the basics. After all, I'd hate to see the guy next to me get airlifted out because he had forgotten that you're suppose to exhale on assent.

 

[MikeFerrara]

A question: If it's good/okay to require divers to obtain certification of their skills at least once in their lives, how is it a wrong thing to periodically require them to recertify?

Good question. In the US, with the exception of some isolated jurisdictions and some parks, a certification is not a requirement.

Certification is an agency requirement for agency members. Outside of their own backyard the agencies don't have any authority. They can issue cards that expire if they want. GUE does. I wouldn't buy one of those though. It's in writing all over the place that existing certs are valid for life so I dare them to try to crawfish.

I think it's good that they don't have any authority because I think it's amply demonstrable that they don't have any expertise. There are enough freshly certified divers with recent experience who really stink in the water to make a joke out of any agency argument about proficiency. I'd rather have the grocery store tell me how to cook and eat than have the agencies tell me how to dive. LOL

If we are going to give regulatory power to an agency, it had better be a government agency because I'm going to want a vote.

 

[MikeFerrara]

And whose standards and instructors would rule? PADI, YMCA, NACD, NAUI, GUE.....?

By George, I think you have it!

I say we test everyone to GUE or NACD skill standards. All those who can't cut it are out! Lets start with recreational diving instructors.

 

[MikeFerrara]

We all need to keep in mind that the vast majority of divers are infrequent, recreational divers. Unfortunately most of these individuals (of which I could be classified at times) do not take the time to so much as think about diving or re-certification. The fact is, people go on a trip, get certified, dive a few times and stop. A year or two later, and sometimes many years later, they go diving again. As a result many people would be up for re-certification just about every time they dive, which isn't going to keep people diving.

The situation you describe is one that was created by the agencies. They wanted to sell diving to everyone. Well they did. Now we have people wanting to force recertification because the overall skill level is so low. I'm not just talking about discussions here on scuba board, it has been discussed in other places too including some of the dive magazines.

Of course then read all the arguments that state a recreational diver doesn't need to be all that good...you hear that when some of us critisize training standards. ok but you can't have it both ways.

The agencies certified all the tourists who could barely dive in the first place and then get worse so I'll leave the agencies to deal with them. However, it would be best if they did so in a way that doesn't inconvenience me.

 

[shellbackdiver1]

Thankfully the police can not catch, hold, trial and pass judgement on me alone. Anybody in the free world would not agree with this....so why would we agree to a single instructor pulling somebody's scuba certs.