Should a Divemaster speak up?

[SubMariner]

My son is a divemaster in training and helped out on an open-water certification weekend. One of the candidates looked like he had never been in a pool with scuba much less ready for an open-water check-out. He couldn't put his gear together properly (his tank fell out from the cam bands TWICE on the weekend). He flailed around in the water hitting the other students with his fins and arms, couldn't control his ascents and generally looked like the worst possible open-water candidate you could imagine. I watched him underwater from a distance on day 2 so I have first-hand knowledge of his troubles.

After day one I told my son that if this guy passed I would turn in my C-cards (he was THAT bad) and low and behold at the end of the day Sunday the instructor was shaking his hand and congratulating him...HE PASSED.

My son knows he should not have passed but deferred to the instructor...he was worried that she might give him a poor evaluation if he spoke up (he needs the instructors sign off on the courses he assists on).

We talked a lot about it and I think in the future he will speak up if he thinks a student passes an open-water check-out when their skillset suggests they need more training.

I'm curious to hear from more experienced divemasters and even instructors on this subject. Should a divemaster speak up if he/she thinks the instructor is "going through the motions" and passing everyone.

The store and certifying agency are irrelevant.

Bob

I'm sorry but your son failed in his duty as a dive professional.

He should have:

a. Coached this failing diving student. That's his job as an interning divemaster candidate.

b. Confronted the instructor about this issue.

C. Gone to the shop owner/course director.

Seriously, what are they going to do? Give him a bad report? He can go to another shop and finish his DM training there.

The first distinction that needs to be made is the fact that dhboner's son is a DIVEMASTER IN TRAINING. Since he isn't a fully fledged DM, he's not allowed to do anything on his own; it must be under the direction of an Instructor. So "coaching the failing diving student" is NOT within his authority or mandate. Even had he been certified assistant/DM, in most agencies he is not allowed to start remediating skills without first discussing it with the Instructor who is running the course to find out exactly what the student needs to work on. Because ultimately it is the Instructor who evaluates whether or not the student has mastered the skill.

"Confronted the instructor about this issue" is not exactly how it should be handled. DISCUSSED the issue with the Instructor, yes. CONFRONTED? No. If the Instructor does not address the issue with the DMC, only THEN should it be taken to someone who is the next level up from the Instructor in the dive education hierarchy at that particular dive shop.

If nothing is gained by that step, then ultimately you can go to the Quality Assurance dept of whatever agency you belong to. But I would caution against this unless the person is already a Dive Professional and is knowledgeable enough to know the standards which may have been violated.

 

[SailNaked]

we do our best to insure we produce safe and competent divers, I have certified a few that met all of the physical requirements yet were not comfortable in the water and as such I spoke to them inviting them to come back to any class at the lake and dive with me or any of the instructors at the shop, we do this free and we do not even charge for gear. I do not think "failing" a diver for being uncoordinated is in any agency standards for a basic openwater card and is likely bad business.
now if you are suggesting that someone can not do the skills then there is no choice but to continue training until they can do the skills with me or someone that speaks their learning language.
basic OW is a learners permit, you know the basics to keep you safe in simple situations that you can put yourself in. it is not a master Diver full cave cert. and it is up to the diver to know their own limits.

 

[fnfalman]

["Confronted the instructor about this issue" is not exactly how it should be handled. DISCUSSED the issue with the Instructor, yes. CONFRONTED? No. If the Instructor does not address the issue with the DMC, only THEN should it be taken to someone who is the next level up from the Instructor in the dive education hierarchy at that particular dive shop.

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Yes, I meant "confronted". Not "discussed". Obviously this now certified diver is a hazard to himself and others around him. It's not like they were doing pool sessions and the DM candidate disagreed with a technique that the instructor is teaching. They were in open water checkout dives and the instructor certified this guy who probably had no business getting certified. Time for discussion is over.

I stand corrected in this case about coaching the student diver because I didn't realize at first read that this was an OW checkout dive. By then it's too late to coach anybody. However, I've seen DM candidates assisting instructors by coaching and teaching student divers various skills and drills during the pool sessions.

 

[tflaris]

My son is a divemaster in training and helped out on an open-water certification weekend. One of the candidates looked like he had never been in a pool with scuba much less ready for an open-water check-out. He couldn't put his gear together properly (his tank fell out from the cam bands TWICE on the weekend). He flailed around in the water hitting the other students with his fins and arms, couldn't control his ascents and generally looked like the worst possible open-water candidate you could imagine. I watched him underwater from a distance on day 2 so I have first-hand knowledge of his troubles.

After day one I told my son that if this guy passed I would turn in my C-cards (he was THAT bad) and low and behold at the end of the day Sunday the instructor was shaking his hand and congratulating him...HE PASSED.

My son knows he should not have passed but deferred to the instructor...he was worried that she might give him a poor evaluation if he spoke up (he needs the instructors sign off on the courses he assists on).

We talked a lot about it and I think in the future he will speak up if he thinks a student passes an open-water check-out when their skillset suggests they need more training.

I'm curious to hear from more experienced divemasters and even instructors on this subject. Should a divemaster speak up if he/she thinks the instructor is "going through the motions" and passing everyone.

The store and certifying agency are irrelevant.

Bob

A one on one conversation always works best. I encourage my DM's to speak up especially if someone's safety is at risk.....anytime.

The Instructor is responsible for ensuring S&P's are met for every student. The responsibility and liability falls on them.

Safe Diving and Good Luck

Tony Flaris
SSI#26849
NAUI #44662

 

[Kingpatzer]

When I was a DMC, I worked with a couple of instructors quite regularly who asked me my view of student performance and if I thought they had demonstrated mastery or not. They went to great lengths to not only garner my observations but to also educate me on what the standards (as they view them) require.

I have never had a relationship with an instructor that would not allow me to have a frank discussion about what I observed.

Of course, I was also smart enough to know I'm not that experienced and that I'm not an instructor, so I tended to engage these discussions in the form of questions rather than confrontations.

 

[Al Mialkovsky]

There is talking off to the side which is acceptable and there is confronting. If any candidate "confronted" me on an issue he'd be done. A dm candidate honestly is as low on the totem pole as it gets professionally.

One of the basic tenants as a DM is to support and enhance the instructors role in training, to make it easier for him to do his job. I always appreciated when someone would point out something wrong but again it was always my call, not the DM's and certainly not a candidate.

Oh did you see the candidate or just go by your sons word?

 

[Diver0001]

I'm curious to hear from more experienced divemasters and even instructors on this subject. Should a divemaster speak up if he/she thinks the instructor is "going through the motions" and passing everyone.

Well, Bob. I'm an instructor and I don't only welcome hearing input from divemasters, I solicit their opinions. I really believe that it's in the best interest of students if the entire training staff works as a team. How I do that is to hold briefings and debriefings with the DM's before and after training sessions where everything they noticed gets air time and we decide collectively how to deal with that.

Obviously, I have the last word so it's not a democracy, but it is an environment where the team (usually only 2 or 3 of us) is collectively focused on getting results.

This was also how I was "brought up" as a DM and it never ceases to amaze me how many instructors under utilize their DM's and miss an opportunity to increase the performance of the whole instruction team. One *rule* I have with DM's is if they see something they don't like and they want to discuss it with me, that they are welcome to do that once the students have gone home, but I don't want them brainstorming "as we go" because I think it can create confusion and/or undermine confidence.

R..

 

[FireInMyBones]

As a DM canidate, I would have been very upset with the instructor, granted I would have held it in until our break/ end of class.
At that time, I would ask questions like "What can we do to help____?" "Why is this an issue now?" "Where have I slacked to allow for these issues?" "Do you see _____ passing even if A, B & C are not to the agency's minimal standards, or are they and I have a misunderstanding of what the minimal standards are?"

It is my responsibility as an DMC to ensure the safety of the class and report to the instructor any concerns. I am also responsible for assisting where needed. This situation requires your son's attention.

Humility before the instructor is important.

If the student passed nothing can be done at this time, to my knowledge. What can be done is to remedy the issue before next time.
I DMC under an instructor that treats OW like getting your Driver's Permit, AOW like your restricted and Rescue like your Driver's License. I agree.

Even in OW situations, diving can be dangerous and lethal. Caution should be taken with every student.

 

[Rhone Man]

I think your son will learn a lot from this experience. I would have thought the best course would be to seek more clarification from the instructor privately as to why they made the decisions that they did. Maybe the instructor was wrong, but trying to pick who was the better judge of the situation between an instructor and a DM in training (presumably therefore still just a rescue diver) the presumption must be in favour of the instructor.

 

[fnfalman]

There is talking off to the side which is acceptable and there is confronting. If any candidate "confronted" me on an issue he'd be done. A dm candidate honestly is as low on the totem pole as it gets professionally.

One of the basic tenants as a DM is to support and enhance the instructors role in training, to make it easier for him to do his job. I always appreciated when someone would point out something wrong but again it was always my call, not the DM's and certainly not a candidate.

Oh did you see the candidate or just go by your sons word?

Ooooohhhh, you're the only "instructor" around who can certify a DM candidate.

If you were certifying ill-trained divers, then you need a good confronting to, that's for sure.