Sherwood SR-1 Free Flows at Cold Water Depth

[jac_3232]

My facts are correct and maybe you should ask the owner what he said to me, as you were not there. I’ve been contacted and have been told the shop is now working on a resolution. I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt, and I’ve edited my post. We’ll see what Sherwood and the LDS can come up with.

 

[disco1999]

I have done about 40 dives with this reg purchased last Sept 2009.
It is a very fine breather when dealing with non cold sites but my personal experience with it seems to confirm these facts:
although the knob is fully closed, the 2nd stage freeflows (not too violent) always occur when diving in waters below 45f @ 75feet & deeper.
Shutting off & on the cylinder valve for 5-10 secs and remaining over 50feet seems to be the only solution to prevent the same situation.
I have taken it for annual servicing and adjustments advising the AD of the issues... still same results. Now it's back again to the AD for checkup.
Design issue Sherwood ?

 

[CMAN]

Does anyone besides me wonder why the Sherwood Rep. hasn't answered any of the earlier postings? I would hope that they come clean and fix the problem or replace the regs.

 

[Sherwood SCUBA rep.]

A couple of thoughts. First, we should certainly look at this consumer’s regulator to see if there is anything misadjusted or wrong with the regulator. If the dealer has it, please have him send it in to us so we can evaluate it. Without looking at the regulator, we cannot make any ascertains.

Second, there is nothing to “come clean” with. There are no design flaws in the regulator. The SR1 provides some of the best breathing performance in a regulator today. Because of its low W.O.B., this regulator may not be as tolerant in the colder waters like a Maximus and Blizzard. These regulators have specific designs that make them very tolerable of cold and even freezing waters. The SR1 manual states “Diving in water temperatures less than 50ºF (10ºC) may require special techniques to avoid conditions that could result in freezing conditions inside regulators and valves. Training should include problem avoidance techniques and emergency procedures for dealing with uncontrolled gas flow from the regulator or valve.”

Third, in our experience these free flows have nothing to do with depth, but rather water temperature. In most cases, water temp at the surface may be one temperature, but as you descend the temperature further decreases. This is why some people associate the free flow with depth, when it is really only temperature.

Fourth, you have a dive store owner and a diver that have had different experiences with the store owner’s regulator. The dive store owner dives it and the regulator does not free flow, when the consumer dives the same regulator it does free flow. In this instance we would assume that it is diving techniques and not the regulator. The store owner may be using more cold water/ice diving techniques, such as not letting water into the 2nd stage or keeping the adjustment dialed closed all the way. Not using these techniques would increase the likeliness of any regulator free flowing. That being said, we should absolutely evaluate the regulator or regulators in question.

Lastly, we are currently evaluating several methods to make an ice kit for the SR1. This would allow the SR1 to be more tolerant of the colder waters.

 

[CMAN]

A couple of thoughts. First, we should certainly look at this consumer’s regulator to see if there is anything misadjusted or wrong with the regulator. If the dealer has it, please have him send it in to us so we can evaluate it. Without looking at the regulator, we cannot make any ascertains.

Second, there is nothing to “come clean” with. There are no design flaws in the regulator. The SR1 provides some of the best breathing performance in a regulator today. Because of its low W.O.B., this regulator may not be as tolerant in the colder waters like a Maximus and Blizzard. These regulators have specific designs that make them very tolerable of cold and even freezing waters. The SR1 manual states “Diving in water temperatures less than 50ºF (10ºC) may require special techniques to avoid conditions that could result in freezing conditions inside regulators and valves. Training should include problem avoidance techniques and emergency procedures for dealing with uncontrolled gas flow from the regulator or valve.”

Third, in our experience these free flows have nothing to do with depth, but rather water temperature. In most cases, water temp at the surface may be one temperature, but as you descend the temperature further decreases. This is why some people associate the free flow with depth, when it is really only temperature.

Fourth, you have a dive store owner and a diver that have had different experiences with the store owner’s regulator. The dive store owner dives it and the regulator does not free flow, when the consumer dives the same regulator it does free flow. In this instance we would assume that it is diving techniques and not the regulator. The store owner may be using more cold water/ice diving techniques, such as not letting water into the 2nd stage or keeping the adjustment dialed closed all the way. Not using these techniques would increase the likeliness of any regulator free flowing. That being said, we should absolutely evaluate the regulator or regulators in question.

Lastly, we are currently evaluating several methods to make an ice kit for the SR1. This would allow the SR1 to be more tolerant of the colder waters.

First, we sent one of the customers SR1 back to Sherwood and they couldn't fine any problem with the adjustments and they sent it back. The customer continued to have freeflows and Sherwood said he must be "messing" with it which caused some bad feelings between the customer and the dive shop. Second, you claim that "because of it's low W.O.B." that it might not be tolerant to cold water. I find that difficult to believe because I have a Scubapro 700A with the same or better W.O.B. and it has never had a freeflow even in much colder water than 46 degrees F. Then you state the SR1 manual requires special techniques in 50 degrees F or colder. What I would like to know is why isn't this info put out on the brouchers or your website? How many people read a manual BEFORE they buy the reg? I'll bet sales would go way down if more people knew the reg wasn't made for cold water. Instead, Sherwood sends these out and the shops catch all the flack. Then I find it quite amusing that earlier the problem was mis-adjusted regulators and now its TRAINING? Third, I won't argue that it is the cold and not the depth but I can't test that until the water cools down this fall. Fourth, the dive shop owner took the reg down on the very next dive and didn't have a problem, but, the dive was much shallower and hence less cold. I find your statement that the dive shop owner used better cold water techniques buy not letting water into the second stage is really crazy. If what you say is fact, then the SR1 must not be good for a "safe second" (how would you keep water out of that?) or for a long hose (how would you donate it without getting water in it?). Lastly, I glad to hear that you are working on a cold water fix. I would hope that Sherwood will offer it to the customers free of charge, I feel that would go a long way towards "coming clean".

 

[jac_3232]

The OP was my dive buddy when I was borrowing the LDS’s SR1 for a 3 day dive charter. If it wasn’t my SR1 free flowing, it was his. I’ve kept the Venturi knob completely closed since my first free flow months ago. I’m not a novice to cold water diving. Prior to the SR1 my primary reg was a Blizzard. I’ve never had a single issue with the Blizzard in cold water. As CMAN stated, if there’s a special technique to using the SR1, why did Sherwood not provide that information somewhere?

I’ve had no problems taking the SR1 to 75 feet in low 40 degree water. I’ve dove the SR1 to that depth and temperature a few times, including a couple on the Niagara in Tobermory. The Niagara has been the coldest water I’ve taken the SR1 into, and I had no signs of a free flow. It’s on the deeper (and slightly warmer) cold water dives that our 3 different SR1’s consistently free flowed. As other owners have also attested to in this thread, depth is a clear contributor to the SR1 free flow problem. I agree with disco & CMAN, that it appears to be a second stage issue, as I’m still able to breathe off my octo during an SR1 free flow.

I was told by both Sherwood and the LDS that the SR1 was capable of diving the recreational depths and temperatures that I dive, when it clearly cannot be. Instead of trying to blame customers, Sherwood needs to be showing concern for an obvious SR1 problem. Someone could be seriously injured or worse, if they panic during a free flow at those depths. I cannot believe Sherwood is not taking this issue more seriously.

 

[h2Ogal]

. . It is not the equipment, it is the adjustment and tuning. All high performance regulators can free flow in these conditions if not adjusted correctly.The SR1 should not be free flowing at these depths or in these temperatures. The free flow is due to tuning or adjustment. Please take your SR1 in to any authorized dealer for inspection and evaluation. If the local dealer cannot solve the issue, they will get it to Sherwood and we will solve it. We are confident all of the regulators above could be adjusted/tuned to where they could perform in these same conditions with zero free flows.

Sorry, but in an earlier post, you state that tuning/adjustment will take care of this problem. Now you are in the process of making an ice kit for this reg? Your contradicting yourself Sherwood.

Quote:Because of its low W.O.B., this regulator may not be as tolerant in the colder waters like a Maximus and Blizzard. These regulators have specific designs that make them very tolerable of cold and even freezing waters. The SR1 manual states “Diving in water temperatures less than 50ºF (10ºC) may require special techniques to avoid conditions that could result in freezing conditions inside regulators and valves. Training should include problem avoidance techniques and emergency procedures for dealing with uncontrolled gas flow from the regulator or valve.”

So..in a nut shell the "problem avoiding techniques" with the free flow problems associated with this reg and the statement from the SR1 manual, this reg should not be used below 50 F. THEN POST IT! -ensure your dealers are aware of the limitation and make it visible on your web site.

How many northern divers unbeknown to Sherwood are experiencing these problems? I am sure more than an isolated few responding to this post on this board.

 

[Sherwood SCUBA rep.]

To circle back to our previous posting and to respond to the three people that commented on my posting. I think I wrote this last posting a little poorly because my intentions and how people are replying seems to be incongruent. So let me try and restate some of my comments.


The SR1 regulator is a great breathing regulator and it has passed all the cold water tests specified by the CE and has a rating of “> 10 C”, which by imperial standards is rated for diving in “less than 50 degrees Fahrenheit”. That being said, there are several of you that are currently having these free flow issues, and we need to address those issues.

Our comments or recommendation about utilizing cold water techniques is not intended to blame the diver for the free flow or suggest that we are not addressing the issue, it is simply a recommendation.

We are in the process of testing some new components to make the regulator more robust in these colder waters.

 

[garyd54220]

I dive the Great Lakes. Sherwoods are very popular around here because they DO NOT free flow in deep, cold water. Our LDS was initially a Sherwood and Scuba Pro dealer. Now everyone knows Scuba Pro's are great breathers but if you've ever dove them in cold water you understand why they also carry the nickname Scuba Flo. The design is not cold water friendly (except for the Mk 16 and 17). Our LDS no longer carries Scuba Pro. Why bother when our local conditions result in far more problems than happy customers. When the SR-1 came out our LDS owner recognized immediately that it would not be a cold water regulator. The design is very similar to the Scuba Pro and the performance in cold water is as well. This dealer/tech recognized this right away, didn't order any and advised peolpe who expressed interest in "the newest, greatest thing"...stick with the designs that work for our conditions. In the case of Sherwood that would be just about any regulator in their line BUT the SR-1. If your LDS didn't advise you of this design's limitations re: cold water that's unfortunate and they should have known better. If you bought it on line or "mail order" you got what you paid for and should have researched better. Buyer beware.
Gary

 

[CMAN]

I talked to the Sherwood Rep (Charlie) on Tuesday, and he told me that Sherwood is working on a "fix". He told me that when they are ready he is going to send our shop one to test.