Secondary reg bungee'd around neck?

[cinder4320]

I was taught to essentially stuff a purging (bubbling) regulator into the OOA diver mouth.

I'm just curious which agency/class teach this practice? I do not expect someone else to be micro managing the reg once its handed off to me. I can forsee issues with blasting the purge while putting it into someones mouth. For instance the unintended effect of actually forcing them to swallow water. Plus what if your purge is too short or unintentionally ended before they got the reg placed? Then you spent valuable time messing with the reg with your hand in the way meaning the OOA diver can not get back to normal breathing. I would not want to be an OOA diver coming upon a reg with someone else regulating it. The only time I have seen this advocated was holding the reg in an unconscious non breathing divers mouth. Purging then is a last ditch effort to try and hope they are getting some air.

Here are the steps for my OOA share. 1.) I grasp the hose immediately right of the reg. My fist ends up next to my mouth with the fingers inward. 2.) I remove from mouth and turn outwards. My fist is now aimed towards them with finger tips toward their face. 3.)Extend hand above my head to free the wrap of my 7' hose. Steps 2 and three are done in unison usually. These are the same steps MikeFerrara was suggesting just in my own description.

Miranda

 

[Walter]

I really can't see the bungee on my neck choking me. It would have to catch on something half an inch from my neck.

It's not likely the bungie that will get snagged, but the regulator hose. As long as you have your regulator attached properly, it's not an issue because the reg will simply pull out of the bungie, you put it back and go on your merry way. Whoji has attached his regulator so it won't pull out of the bungie. There's a big difference.

Good enough for them - Good enough for me!!!

If you like their methods, you might consider changing yours to match theirs. Look at the photograph that goes with that statement. That regulator will pull out of the bungie.

 

[whoji]

Thanks Halcyon picture is too small to really see. However the wording clearly states it goes under the mouthpiece ziptie.
Do you have a picture of your secondary regulator setup walter, how do you attach yours?
My secondary reg hoses are angled off the left first stage in such a way there is no possibility of snagging.
The guys I dive with are going to grab my primary (not wait until I offer) if OOA so it being damaged that way is not an issue. So wheres the problem?

 

[bubba105]

I'm just curious which agency/class teach this practice? I do not expect someone else to be micro managing the reg once its handed off to me. I can forsee issues with blasting the purge while putting it into someones mouth. For instance the unintended effect of actually forcing them to swallow water. Plus what if your purge is too short or unintentionally ended before they got the reg placed? Then you spent valuable time messing with the reg with your hand in the way meaning the OOA diver can not get back to normal breathing. I would not want to be an OOA diver coming upon a reg with someone else regulating it. The only time I have seen this advocated was holding the reg in an unconscious non breathing divers mouth. Purging then is a last ditch effort to try and hope they are getting some air.

Here are the steps for my OOA share. 1.) I grasp the hose immediately right of the reg. My fist ends up next to my mouth with the fingers inward. 2.) I remove from mouth and turn outwards. My fist is now aimed towards them with finger tips toward their face. 3.)Extend hand above my head to free the wrap of my 7' hose. Steps 2 and three are done in unison usually. These are the same steps MikeFerrara was suggesting just in my own description.

Miranda

OK, this is getting a little out of hand. In my original post I wanted everyone to remember the purge is there and it can be used to help a fellow diver in an OOA situation. Nowhere did anyone say "BLAST" air into someone else's mouth, until you made this assumption. No one is micro managing your air supply, but, since your other choice is death, remember, the donor is the one with the air supply. Your buddy, coming to you for air will be in a much more excited state than you. If they have no reg in their mouth, you can bet they have a mouth full of water because their last inhalation didn't give them air & water took the air's place. BTW, we're talking 3, maybe 4 ounces of liquid, not a lot to remove from your mouth but a b*tch to swallow at 100 feet. Now, a small amount of air, I believe I said enough to remove the water from their mouth, a puff of air, will remove the water from a stressed diver's mouth. If the diver was close to you & you saw them react to not getting a breath, then swim to you, this is probably unnecessary, however, be ready to come to your buddy's aide. A little touch of the purge button is not going to force water down anyone's throat. If you happen to be the OOA diver, try to remember the purge button. My only thought in making my statements was to make people aware of a not too often mentioned piece of equipment, the purge button, and a helpful use of that equipment. Take from these whatever you wish.

 

[cinder4320]

Please note Bubba105 that my reply, which you quoted, is not directed to you. I am specifically quoting "spectrum" you stated he was taught to purge the reg and put it in the OOA divers mouth.

You also say "If they have no reg in their mouth, you can bet they have a mouth full of water because their last inhalation didn't give them air & water took the air's place." When you breathe your tank down, water does not enter your mouth. Nothing does. For water to be in their mouth, they would have to have started drinking, drowning or something similar. Thats beside the point though and even if we assume the diver takes a drink I just don't know of any agency teaching this practice (except as stated below in rescue).

After reading your reply I still have to respectfully disagree that the purge should be used by the diver donating. Even if the OOA needs air and has water in their mouth that diver should know how to purge. Then theres no chance of you causing them any stress. I can't imagine that a certified diver does not know when and how to purge their own reg. The donating individual interfering just seems like asking for trouble and not neccessary. Out of curiosity I'm still wondering which agency teaches this.

Miranda

 

[Walter]

Thanks Halcyon picture is too small to really see. However the wording clearly states it goes under the mouthpiece ziptie.
Do you have a picture of your secondary regulator setup walter, how do you attach yours?
My secondary reg hoses are angled off the left first stage in such a way there is no possibility of snagging.
The guys I dive with are going to grab my primary (not wait until I offer) if OOA so it being damaged that way is not an issue. So wheres the problem?

In post 73, dkatchalov gave us a link on how to set up your bungie without turning it into a noose. This is the method referred to on the Halcyon website. "Under" is not as clear as you might think. It could mean between the ziptie and the mouthpiece as you've done, but it doesn't. It means when you slide the loop of the bungie over the mouthpiece, it can go past the ziptie. It is at a point or position lower or further down than the ziptie. In this case, "under" was not the best choice in wording.

Under is not a simple word, it has many meanings.

un·der /ˈʌndər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[uhn-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–preposition 1. beneath and covered by: under a table; under a tree.
2. below the surface of: under water; under the skin.
3. at a point or position lower or further down than: He was hit just under his eye.
4. in the position or state of bearing, supporting, sustaining, enduring, etc.: to sink under a heavy load.
5. beneath the heading or within the category of: Classify the books under “Fiction” and “General.”
6. as designated, indicated, or represented by: to register under a new name.
7. below in degree, amount, etc.; less than: purchased under cost.
8. below in rank; of less dignity, importance, or the like: A corporal is under a sergeant.
9. subject to the authority, direction, or supervision of: a bureau functioning under the prime minister.
10. subject to the instruction or advice of: to study the violin under Heifetz.
11. subject to the influence, condition, force, etc., of: under these circumstances; born under the sign of Taurus.
12. protected, controlled, or watched by: under guard.
13. authorized, warranted, or attested by: under one's hand or seal.
14. in accordance with: under the provisions of the law.
15. during the rule, administration, or government of: new laws passed under President Reagan.
16. in the state or process of: under repair; a matter under consideration.
17. Nautical. powered by the means indicated: under sail; under steam.
–adverb 18. below or beneath something: Go over the fence, not under.
19. beneath the surface.
20. in a lower place.
21. in a lower degree, amount, etc.: selling blouses for $25 and under.
22. in a subordinate position or condition.
23. in or into subjection or submission.

 

[Gombessa]

Just because Halcyon came into the conversation...

I think what's happening is that the Halcyon picture referenced is NOT consistent with the description Halcyon gives to accompany it.

The way I've heard it, the typical ziptie-bungee method is simply to string the bungee under (just as it sounds) the ziptie to secure the bungee. The ziptie is then tightened so that it securely holds both the bungee AND the mouthpiece together. The bungee has knots on either end to prevent it from inadvertently slip out from under the ziptie. This is what the Halcyon site *describes.* So as far as I know, sorry Walter, but I think Halcyon is pretty clearly talking about the bungee being between the ziptie and the mouthpiece, just as it sounds.

The second method is what Age's Tech1 instructor describes (and is what I've been told and have been using). That is to place a second ziptie behind the mouthpiece (closer to the "purge" side of the regulator in order to secure the bungee. Presumably, this works just like the first method, but also allows the bungee to slip out of the ziptie without potentially pulling the mouthpiece off of the second stage.

The third method is what is PICTURED on the Halcyon site, and is closest in practice to the "Manta" loop and Floater's method as linked by dkatchalov. Here, the bungee is tied with a loop, either with two fisherman's knots (?) or two zipties on each side, and the loop can be stretched to fit over the second stage mouthpiece. Just like a standard "octo-holder," pull hard enough and the reg should just slip out of the loop.

Now as for Whoji - I can't judge the quality of your three-ziptie method, but I can tell you pretty conclusively that it is NOT the same method Halcyon describes, either in their illustration or in their description.

 

[Lucy's Diver]

Thanks Halcyon picture is too small to really see. However the wording clearly states it goes under the mouthpiece ziptie.
Do you have a picture of your secondary regulator setup walter, how do you attach yours?
My secondary reg hoses are angled off the left first stage in such a way there is no possibility of snagging.
The guys I dive with are going to grab my primary (not wait until I offer) if OOA so it being damaged that way is not an issue. So wheres the problem?

(a) There is a possibility of it snagging. Just like there was a possibility of the Titanic sinking.
(b) You've deleted an intentionally engineered weak point. Something will break sooner or later, and probably something you don't want to break. I'm thinking likely the bungee material will be abraded by the zip tie. Maybe the zip tie will break. Who knows? That's the point.

 

[whoji]

Something will break sooner or later, and probably something you don't want to break. I'm thinking likely the bungee material will be abraded by the zip tie. Maybe the zip tie will break. Who knows? That's the point.

Whats the point?? Isnt this the case with ALL dive gear. Dont we do stringent checks on out gear to ensure we find such problems.

 

[Lucy's Diver]

Whats the point?? Isnt this the case with ALL dive gear. Dont we do stringent checks on out gear to ensure we find such problems.

I don't intentionally set up my dive gear in a manner that wears it out faster than need be, but so long as you and your dive team members conduct your predive and all aspects of your dive with the utmost perfection I'm sure you'll be fine.

In any case you are still bypassing in intentional weak point. Many (or most) tech divers, for example, set up the various clips on their hoses with breakaway fittings. Many, for example, secure the clip to the hose with just an O ring that will break if yanked. You have essentially duct taped over that O ring to make it non-breakaway.

Similarly, with a properly set up necklace the reg will come out if yanked (by you, someone else, or something else). With your set up a hard yank will break something, choke you, or pull the bungee over your head, likely taking your mask with it.