ScubaPro not Allowing Testing of Products

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Well, I'm sure it's not an out-and-out blackmail threat... But I just found ti funny that the Poseidon reg FAILED on ALL tests. Even the Mares MR-12 Axis got a Tester's Choice, and the Poseidon FAILED.... and a huge paragraph prior to the 'test results' gave importance to the fact that Poseidon REFUSES to submit equipment for testing.
 
At the risk of sounding like a world-weary cynic, which I'm not, well, not a cynic at least, I'd like to suggest the following hypotheses for SP opting out of the Rodale's test reports.

1: Might it be that there has been a spate of new competition that equals or even possibly outperforms the SP offerings? The gamble here is to rest on past laurels and hope that the absence won't be noted, or hope that the consumer will assume that SP is above the run-of-the-mill test cycles. It might be a smart move.

2: Is SP considering cutting down on their ad spending in Rodale's mag and have some concerns about the effect that might have on their results?

3: Might SP be responding to the anti-Rodales skeptics on the internet (and perhaps otherwheres) and have made a decision that, in the balance, they are better off absent from the Rodale's Reports. This is just a variation on hypothesis #1.

4: Might their R & D folks just be getting tired of being second guessed by self-appointed consumer advocates. After all, SP has a pretty solid background of product development and quality. They seem to have been the generally accepted benchmark for reg quality for years now. If their R&D types have made a decision to introduce new materials that in the past haven't been considered equal to the old tried and true materials, might it not be a result of technical advancements in the materials & engineering rather than an accounting or purchasing dept decision? But a lot of folks seem to be making the assumption that a switch to modern plastics is a backwards step in quality. If this kind of statement is made in a widely read mag like Rodales, how many consumers will simply accept it as gospel and shop the market under the possible delusion that SP has cheapened their product line. Talk to NASA about modern polymers & ceramics or whatever the heck they're using in their new flying machines.

I'm sure there are other possibilities but I've bored y'all enuf for now.

BTW. I don't own any SP products nor have I ever. I've never even dived a Scuba Pro anything. Frankly, I shied away from their regs cuz I like simple things. Hence the Sherwood Blizzard and Apeks TX40's that I dive now. Actually, I'd really like a couple of their SS buckles for my harnesses, but the good shops seem to be perennially sold out of them.

Respectfully
JohnF
 
I couple of notes from a guy who (non-professionally) owns a bunch of SP regs and has had 'em all apart at least once.

SP has, indeed, "cheapened" and "complexitized" (is that a word?) their regs over the last 10 years or so. The most striking examples of this are the Mk10 and Mk25, side-by-side.

The Mk10 is a very simple design. They could have named the reg for its parts count! Seriously. And yes, that includes O-rings.

The CLAIM is that the Mk25 is a performance improvement (actually, the Mk20 is, and the 25 has the external adjustment.) They've also diddled with the cold-water anti-freeze protection over the last 10 years or so.

But what I can tell you, having all of them side-by-side, and having tested and actually USED all of them, is this:

1. The Mk10 was a very simple design, and works really well. It can be overhauled by a monkey in his sleep; I can literally strip and rebuild one in 10 minutes, not including cleaning time (which of course is variable depending on how gunked up it is.)

2. The Mk10+ has the exact same HP seat design as the 20/25 - in fact, seats for the 20/25 will work in the 10+ and vice-versa! That, by the way, is the only difference between the 10 and 10+. They are otherwise internally identical (only the piston and seat change.)

3. The IP drop under demand is imperceptably different between the Mk10+ and 20/25. There is a difference in performance between the older knife-edge piston design on the Mk10, and the "concave seat/flat-piston-edge" design in the 10+/20/25. Its not major, but its there (the difference being that a Mk10 might show 10-15 psi IP drop during a strong inhalation or purge, while the 10+/20/25 might show only 7-10psi.) That translates into more responsive air delivery, especially with non-balanced second stages. However, paradoxially, the 10+ (and presumably the 20 and 25) are more sensitive to issues with the piston itself.

4. As such, the "newer design seat/piston" IS an improvement in real performance.

HOWEVER, the 20/25 introduced these damnable plastic bushings that "capture" the HP O-ring, rather than the tried-and-true groove in the actual regulator body. The result of this is that the newer regs have LOOSER internal tolerances (plastic simply isn't as stable as metal), the plastic pieces WEAR (I've actually had one of these bushings CRACK in normal use, resulting in a nice leak), they could fail catastrophically (which would lead to a HUGE HP leak; if it happened underwater you'd be extremely unhappy), they are on the "must replace annual" list, which now means that you now are tied even more than usual to SP for parts and it ALSO has driven a requirement for special 90-duro O-rings at that location - 70s will LEAK BADLY in the 20/25s, while they work just fine (EPR please, no Buna!) in the Mk10/10+.

If/when Rofales starts paying attention to service issues in their reviews, all of this would get WIDE publicity. And the simple fact of the matter is that my cynical side says that they did all this garbage in the 20/25 simply to be able to file another patent - not for real innovation, but as a means of keeping others away from their "great design". In other words, its all marketing hype and no substance.

Then you have the "borg turret" on the new Mk25s. I just saw those recently. It appears to be yet another attempt at making a cold-water reg out of a piston design without using an environmental kit. The entire CONCEPT is a crock in my opinion, but heh, marketing reigns supreme, right? The proof that its a crock, by the way, is that SP has been doing this "thermal insulating system" garbage in one form or another for more than TEN YEARS and is STILL changing it damn near every year in an attempt to actually make it work! The obvious REAL solution is to just pack the silly thing with grease, but that's both messy and (if you use Christolube) expensive, and makes overhauls take longer since youi have to clean all the old crap out of there when you're doing the overhaul. THAT makes it unpopular as an option (as it should!)

IMHO the truth is that piston regs simply shouldn't be used in water under 50F - if you're going to dive cold water, do it with a sealed diaphram first.

The same appears to be true on the S600. There are a lot of plastic bits in there (including the air tube) that are not in the older G250. Yet the 250 breathes almost identically to the S600 - and its a 10-year+ old design! Further, the 250 is a very simple externally-adjustable barrel poppet, while the S600 has a lot of CHEAP, SOFT PLASTIC parts (not even hard, good-quality plastic), particularly in the adjuster and poppet tension setting arena.

The ONE place where the S600 wins is that it unloads the poppet when the reg is not pressurized. This is a REAL advantage, in that it extends seat life almost indefinitely. So there is a real advantage there. But that poppet seat is a $0.50 part, in all honesty (even though you have to buy a parts kit to get it!), if its worth that much.

On the G250 you can get nearly the same results by popping off the metal clip that restricts outward movement of the poppet adjuster and backing it out until it unloads when the reg is not in use. That doesn't change the reg's adjustments, and can be reversed when the reg comes out of storage in about 30 seconds.
 
Good post Genesis, and it's one that I will refer to frequently, but one thing that I must disagree with, and simply because I have used it many many times under these conditions, is the "don't use below 50 degrees comment.

Honestly this is not true. In all my diving with my Mk20/G250HP set-ups, I have never used it ABOVE 50 degrees, and I've used it all the way down to freezing, and it never once acted up. Never. The most I ever got was a feeling of possible ice chunks (very small) once, on a 39 degree dive, but ZERO freeze-ups.

It's just no the issue you make it out to be. If it was, either myself or my many Mk20 friends would have experienced it, with all our cold diving.

Great post.

I like that you get down to where the rubber meets the road, as that's all that counts.
 
Genisis......thanks for the techno info on SP's regs. I almost bought the SP but opted for the AL Legend instead. The best part of your post is that I learned a new word today.........................."complexitized"

I'm going to have to find a way to use that today.
 
in cold water is HIGHLY situation dependant.

You can dive a piston reg in 34F water PROVIDED you do not make any extraordinary demands on the airflow, and do not use a high tank pressure (adiabatic cooling is proportional to the differential between the tank and intermediate pressure.)

You can also freeze one in most cases below about 50F if you use a HP tank and have a freeflow or other extraordinary high-demand situation arise while the reg is submerged.

You may not have run into any problems with your Mk20, but I bet you can provoke a first-stage freeze-up if you intentionally freeflow your octo (don't try this at home folks!) in that kind of cold water.

In fact, one of the things I'm going to do this winter, when my pool gets down into the 40s, is to run some tests on the old Mk10, the Mk10+, and a Mk25 under the best controlled conditions I can muster to see if I can provoke a freeze, and if so, if there is any substantive difference between the different regs.

Unfortunately I'm about six months away from having my pool at temperatures where this will be possible :)
 
From their D2D section:


Hi folks,

Pure and simple ... Scubapro has declined to submit gear to Rodale's ScubaLab due to philosophical differences with our testing protocols. While we respect the rights of manufacturers to withdraw from ScubaLab testing, we maintain the utmost confidence in our testers and test procedures, and will continue to provide our readers with the most objective, comprehensive gear reviews available in dive publishing.

If anybody has any questions, please feel free to email me.

Best,
Nick Lucey

Editor at Large
Rodale's Scuba Diving magazine


...and also:


Up until this point, Rodale's ScubaLab has relied on the manufacturers to voluntarily submit gear for testing. In light of recent developments, however, we're currently reviewing our policy to see if we should purchase gear from top-name manufacturers who consciously decide to not send us their products.

Nick Lucey
Editor at Large,
Rodale's Scuba Diving
 
Elvis Maximus once bubbled...
From their D2D section:

Up until this point, Rodale's ScubaLab has relied on the manufacturers to voluntarily submit gear for testing. In light of recent developments, however, we're currently reviewing our policy to see if we should purchase gear from top-name manufacturers who consciously decide to not send us their products.

Nick Lucey
Editor at Large,
Rodale's Scuba Diving

You could probably get the best deal through Leisure Pro. And you shouldn't have to worry about anyone "gold plating" it and biasing the results. Then ebay it when you are done and costs should be minimal.
 
awap once bubbled...


You could probably get the best deal through Leisure Pro. And you shouldn't have to worry about anyone "gold plating" it and biasing the results. Then ebay it when you are done and costs should be minimal.

Would a grey market purchased item reflect a true and accurate picture? I wonder if that would be fair to the manufacturer OR the consumer? Shouldn't the provenance be verifiable?

JohnF
 
I was casting for the other fish. Then again, why should what is most likiely the single largest retailer of Scubapro regulators in the world be excluded?
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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