Scubapro G250V vs S600?

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

If you already have a 109 and 108, I don't understand why you're worrying about getting new 2nd stages. You're not going to get anything better, you'll just spend a lot more. $120 for rebuilding and converting a 109 is ridiculous, you need a new shop, not a new regulator. Sheesh....and as overpriced as that is, it's still less than half of the price of a new plastic 2nd stage that's based on the 109 (balanced/adjustable) design to begin with.

Now I remember, you're the guy with the MK7.....no offense, but didn't you learn anything from the other thread? Get a MK5 or MK10 and be done with it. And find someone to service them that's not shoving new regulators down your throat.
 
No need to get hostile. Yeah, I did learn from the old thread. Can I get an MK5 or 10 online and use the second stages that i've got? yes. Can I get service and parts for the prices people told me I should be able to? no, not from where I've asked. One shop told me flat out that they won't touch them (any of the stages, not just the brick they call an mk7). The shop that will service them quoted me $25 for parts kits for each second. fine, even though I was told those prices are ridiculous. I think the first stage kit was something around $35, so I imagine roughly the same for an mk5 or 10 parts kit. The other shop still won't touch it based on the second stages. $60-70 seems to the annual service rate around here (not just that shop) so say i pick up an mk5 for $50, i'm looking at just over $200 before I can even dive it. I've also heard that the mk5 is not sealed, so I'd need to get it sealed (packed with grease, i believe), so $200 plus whatever to seal it, then say almost $100 in parts and grease for service. I'm looking at a 2-3 year service interval to make this cost-effective... and then what happens if I move at some point and the local SP shop says "sorry, it's too old"?

Which 2nd stage are you referring to with this: "it's still less than half of the price of a new plastic 2nd stage that's based on the 109 (balanced/adjustable) design to begin with."?

Sure, I could have them leave the 109 as is and just get it serviced, but I really have no idea if the rubber parts are any good, it's been sitting in my cold, damp basement for the better part of 30 years. I also have NO idea what kind of performance to expect from it. I'm open to the idea of it, based on my earlier post, but I really don't know if it's cost-effective. (It really not cost-effective if somebody's possibly going to give me part of a new setup for christmas, lol) The setup looks basically new, but who knows what's been going on with it over the last 30 years... if anybody's interested, I can post pics.
 
Yes, the Canadian prices for parts are quite different from the US. I have (regrettably) much experience in that. SP has a "strangle hold" on stuff up there - the single supplier is, shall I say - gouging. That 109 is still likely worth it, as it would go another 50 years... Put it on a MK-17 (just saw 2 for sale here at a pretty good price - they went fast - bet you can get one somewhere, new or used). Think about getting someone else to do the overhaul here in the states. Cost here, even with shipping is likely would be less..... There are a couple folks around here that can do it (or, for a modest investment, set yourself up to DIY - whole 'nother thread - That 109 is about as simple as it can get)

But, if you are convinced you just can't, or won't go that route, then send me the 109...... I'd gladly "suffer" with it.... There is a reason guys are so "passionate" about those regs.
 
No need to get hostile....

Which 2nd stage are you referring to with this: "it's still less than half of the price of a new plastic 2nd stage that's based on the 109 (balanced/adjustable) design to begin with."?

Sure, I could have them leave the 109 as is and just get it serviced, but I really have no idea if the rubber parts are any good, it's been sitting in my cold, damp basement for the better part of 30 years. I also have NO idea what kind of performance to expect from it. I'm open to the idea of it, based on my earlier post, but I really don't know if it's cost-effective. ... if anybody's interested, I can post pics.

First, sorry if I came off as hostile, that's not my intention. The G250V and S600 (especially the G250V) are direct descendants of the balanced/adjustable, which is the 109 with a balanced poppet. IOW, if you upgrade the 109 to balanced/adjustable you'll have basically a G250 in a metal case. (The S600 has some added complexity in the breathing adjustment mechanism and a smaller case.) The metal case is FAR better in cold water and has some intangible advantages, like reduced dry mouth and MUCH better durability and toughness. Its not a coincidence that SP's current 'latest and greatest' is an all-metal 2nd stage. You already have the classic.

I'm not sure how to put this delicately, but the shops you're visiting are A) full of it, and B) just trying to sell you a new reg....that is, after all, what they do. I'm sorry that you can't seem to find a service tech that understands the value of the older regs. This is a really common problem; it seems that excellent, reasonable repair technicians and dive shops are the exception, not the rule. Maybe that's why the whole business model seems to be crumbling. Here is some accurate information about your 109: Once you upgrade to balanced, the repair kit is the same as the G250V and S600. The upgrade consists of a poppet, spring, and balance chamber. The retail price on those parts in the U.S. is less than $20, and you only replace them once. The rubber parts consist of a diaphragm cover and exhaust tee. Those parts in the U.S. are less than $30 retail. If you also need a diaphragm, a good guess would be $15 retail; but I have rarely seen 109s needing new diaphragms. Soooo....worst case, all parts at retail, $65 plus the cost of the repair kit. I've rebuilt dozens of them and have never spent anywhere near that much on one. Granted, these are U.S. costs, but there's simply no way the Canadian cost is double or triple. As far as labor goes, the 109 is simpler to rebuild, and if your tech is hesitant to do so, find a new tech.

The 108 is not as nice a regulator, but works very well for an alternate 2nd stage. It's the precursor to the current R190 series; unbalanced downstream design. It takes the same kit as the R190, R380, etc.... and is essentially one o-ring, a puck seat, and a nyloc nut. I only have one 108, but it performs better than any of the R190s or similar that I've seen, and mine is the less-desirable single adjustment. It took me a long time to get around to rebuilding it because I didn't think it would work very well, but I was wrong.

Do you have a drysuit? If not, you don't need a sealed MK5 or MK10. That's likely to be a controversial statement, but honestly I don't see how anyone could dive in water cold enough to freeze a MK5/balanced adjustable in a wetsuit. One thing the dive shop doesn't mention (they probably just don't know) is that the older BP first and especially the all-metal 2nd stages are more freeze resistant to begin with; there is better heat transfer and lower flow rates. But, sealing them is easy; just fill the ambient chamber with silicone grease (or PTFE grease if you are diving with higher O2 mixes). If a tech says he can't do that or even that it's difficult, expensive, or not worth it, guess what.....find a new tech.

Here's the most telling statement in your post: "it's been sitting in my basement for the better part of 30 years...the set up looks basically new." Doesn't that tell you something about the durability and quality of these older regs? As far as evaluating the rubber parts, just look at the exhaust tee and the rubber purge cover. Are they dried out and cracked? If so, replace, if not, they're fine.

There's another issue you should be aware of; SP in their infinite wisdom has recently abandoned the "free parts" for life program, meaning when you buy a new regulator, you will now pay absurd prices for rebuild kits just like everyone else; even if you stick to the excessive annual service policy.

Nobody can tell you what you like. If what you want is a new, expensive, plastic regulator, fine. But don't fool yourself into thinking it will improve your dive experience. The truth is that scuba regulators have not really improved in decades; only gotten more complex, cheaper to build, and more loaded with "features" and design modifications that make them appear better on breathing machines. This, unfortunately, tells you very little about what it's like diving with them, or living with them and 'abusing' them year after year on dive boats.

Okay, rant over......:wink:
 
Yes, the Canadian prices for parts are quite different from the US. I have (regrettably) much experience in that. SP has a "strangle hold" on stuff up there - the single supplier is, shall I say - gouging.

Ok, good, so it's not just this shop.

I'm not sure how to put this delicately, but the shops you're visiting are A) full of it, and B) just trying to sell you a new reg....that is, after all, what they do. ... Granted, these are U.S. costs, but there's simply no way the Canadian cost is double or triple. As far as labor goes, the 109 is simpler to rebuild, and if your tech is hesitant to do so, find a new tech. ...

Here's the most telling statement in your post: "it's been sitting in my basement for the better part of 30 years...the set up looks basically new." Doesn't that tell you something about the durability and quality of these older regs? As far as evaluating the rubber parts, just look at the exhaust tee and the rubber purge cover. Are they dried out and cracked? If so, replace, if not, they're fine.

There's another issue you should be aware of; SP in their infinite wisdom has recently abandoned the "free parts" for life program, meaning when you buy a new regulator, you will now pay absurd prices for rebuild kits just like everyone else; even if you stick to the excessive annual service policy.

Okay, rant over......:wink:

halocline, thanks for the detailed response.

If I want him to service it, he will - he told me he has the parts kits. SP's free parts program ends at the end of this month, so if I were to buy now, I'm still covered, which is the main reason I'm shopping now instead of in the spring when I'll actually be able to start using it. If the program were already over, this would be a no-brainer for me - upgrade the 109, use the 108 and get a new (at least to me) first stage, but it isn't. If he insists on charging me the full reg service price, with parts I'm looking at almost $100 before I get it in the water, 4 services later I could have bought an R295 ($199), 5 and I could have gotten a C200 ($229). If I go on 2 year service intervals, that's 8-10 years. How long should I expect an R295 or C200 to last before it starts screaming "replace me"? Am I going to get better performance out of a 109 than either of those 2?

I think part of the reason it still looks new after 30 years is because it pretty much was new when it got put away, only going on about 20 or so dives. The only thing I've really noticed that seems "off" is that the diaphragm is sorta 2-toned, or at least has a couple of blackish spots on it.

I guess I could send him an email asking for an exact cost to service just the 109 and see what I end up with.
 
Oreo,

PM DA Aquamaster and Bluewaterdiving and see if they'll service your regs or have a BA or 109 to your liking. If not, PM me and I'll see if I do. I am not a certified Tech like they are, so if you get one from me it'll be more expensive and you'll die if you use it unless your LDS blesses it.

109_front.jpg
 
Last edited:
couv, If I can't get the one I've got fixed cost-effectively, I'm getting a new second stage, I won't be going looking for another 109 or BA.
 
That's the point, have DA or BW service what have. Save a ton of money and you'll also have a far better regulator than a plastic-fantastic.
 
Around here (and this isn't warm water, constant diving), service is $25/stage + parts. On the other side of the river, (in your country), parts are a little more, but the labor charges are "revolting". You can get that reg back to "new", and future maintenance is not too costly.... and it will last!
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

Back
Top Bottom