Regulator Repair or Replace? That is the Question.

[Teredge]

Thanks for the reply JahJahwarrior. If there is one thing that dive shops tell me, it's to NEVER screw around with your reg. Get them serviced by a qualified professional. They make it sound like rocket science and I'm sure it's pretty technical. I'm pretty good with working on things and actually enjoy that sort of thing, but I would have to be fully trained and feel comfortable enough. I'm sure the formal instruction is pretty expensive and a YouTube video probably won't cut it.

Standard rec scuba regulators definitely aren't rocket science, if you're decently mechanically inclined you can service your own gear.

I realize it's life support and not everyone with a pair of vice grips should work on them but they're not very complicated.

 

[shurite7]

I've never claimed older regs will breathe better. I'm just stating that out of the box, from the shop I've bought it, the legend was set alot worse than I could set the mk5 with the 156 myself with just a small homemade hobby test bench.
It could be that the store did not adjust it properly before sale was made.

New regulators are sent out from the manufacturer within specs meaning the first stages are within certain IP/MP and the second stages are set at the preliminary settings. They are not "tuned" and many stores are unaware of this, especially if they don't have an available technician.

In order to make an accurate comparison, have the Legend service since the Mk5/156 have been serviced. This way the regs are on equal playing ground. Or, take a Mk5/156 and a Legend right out the box and compare them. The later is not an option because one will not be able to find a new out of the box Mk5/156.

About the cold water department, purely speaking about the second stage:
Except the abyss 22 or xstream I don't think there are many second stages LESS prone to freezing than the 109's ? Or is there something specific I'm missing here which should make the 109/156 more prone to freeflowing compared to modern cold water regs.

I've heard many such claims. Up here I've regularly dive with a Mk25EVO/G260 year around. Not once have I had an issue. I've even used it for ice diving. Now that I use a FFM for PSD or ice diving I use a Mk17EVO.

Last winter I took the university scientific divers out for training. Water temp was 35 degrees and the air temp was a little bit warmer. The dive ended early due to free flow which started at 100 feet. Those that didn't have a problem remained in the water. I ascended with the free flowers. When we got to shore there were several people from the Great Lakes area watching us. They starting talking to us and found out about the free flow. Their first comment was never to use Scubapro regs in cold water because they fail easily. They recommend another brand, which I will not specify. I simply chuckled and told them the brand they recommended was the one that failed and those with Scubapro regs were still in the water. My Mk25/G260 worked just fine. For that dive I would not have taken my Mk5/156 Adjustable.

The scientific group travels to Antarctica to study sea spiders. The two people who run the diving operations there stated the only reg people would be allowed to use were their Sherwood regs, NO OTHERS. They were very clear with this. They stated that all other regs had been tested by them, right out the box, and free flowed. .

A couple of years ago one of the technicians, whom I learned a great deal from, took a group of divers to a mountain lake to test numerous types of regs of as many brands as possible, including Poseidon. Each of the regs were tested and all of them free flowed. The hardest to get to free flow was the Delta IV, which the tech disliked the most. The results were a surprise. The lesson learned is if you know what you are doing, or have no idea what your doing, you can make a reg free flow in cold water.

For cold water diving I like the Mk25 or Mk17 / G260 or the X-Stream, especially when it comes to performance and durability in cold waters. The other instructor here loves his Apeks regs which I think are quite decent.

Honestly if there was a 156 with a twist on/off top, with a spider exhaust valve brazed at 34 mm, it would be the perfect second stage or am I missing something greatly here?
(so basically a brass g250).

While the 156 is a nice second stage and breathes well, I much prefer the G260 which has a ventura and a micro-adjust. The 156 has neither. What Scubapro has done is taken the lessons learned from the 156, G250, S600 and created the G260 and A700; the latter is a metal second stage with a micro-adjust and ventura.

In short, I wouldn't say you are "missing" anything. I do think the claims are a bit outlandish. I eventually sold my Mk5/Adjustable, Mk20/G250/G200B, and Mk25/G250HP because it lacked the performance and reliability for cold water diving. In some regards I miss having the regs. They were good breathers and in very good condition. It was nicer to get a nice price for them, leaving no regrets.

 

[W W Meixner]

...Lots of good conversation generated on this one...with one thing glaringly obvious...it seems as though almost everyone has had regulators serviced...that came back in a condition that was less than satisfactory...

Don't forget...reg service qualification certificates are given out for your ''attendance'' at a 4/6 hour ''course''...and to call it a course...is an insult to a course...it's like I noted in a previous thread on the same subject...it's all about comprehension...some attendees get it...and others...well those others service your regs to free-flow when you bench test them before leaving the shop...

Some shops seem to think that your regs need to be set at optimum breathing flow...failing to take into consideration that optimum breathing flow lives right next door to free-flow...checking ''cracking'' pressure on a magnahelic is an acquired skill...thinking you have your cracking pressure set correctly on a magnahelic may not be correct at all after you double check your ''inches of water'' adjustment by dipping your second stage in a bucket filled with at least 12 inches of water...

No need to scour the ''black market'' for questionable service kits...flip seats over or use ''generic'' parts when OEM can't be found...there are shops who will sell purchasers service kits for every brand of regulators they sell...now having said that...having a readily available service kit does not give you licence to tear down your regs and attempt servicing them with no prior experience...

Scuba diving is like any other sport...it tasks you to find the right people to associate with...people who can help you to fulfill your needs...partnering up with a qualified service technician will do you far more good than will partnering up with the proverbial ''Gods Gift to Scuba Diving''... becoming self reliant in this sport will not only save you a box-car full of money...it can become very enjoyable as well...not to mention giving you a useful purpose during those long cold winter months when you can't dive...

All the specialty tools...service stickers...service kits are readily available...none of this is ''top secret''...and anyone who tells you that this equipment is restricted to authorized shop owners only...is probably the same shop who performed less than satisfactory work on you $1800. reg set...and gave you your regs back gouged and dinged from using the wrong tools...shops get lots of money for this kind of work...the tech gets minimum wage...you pay 50/60 dollars an hour labour...plus up to 130% markup on parts/supplies...and the ''free kits for life''...that's money for old rope...any wonder the industry is in its current state...

C-Cards for tank inspection/service...fill station operator...gas blending...current certificates for regulator service...could become some of the most important scuba diving credentials in your possession...far less expensive...and far more valuable than an instructors certificate that has never been used...and never will be used...and there's lots of those out there...

In all fairness...to all the shop owners out there who are doing things the right way...congratulations and thank you...

Safe Diving...Warren.

 

[W W Meixner]

I find it quite frankly amusing that people spend $1000 on a reg. If I paid that much, I'd want free service for life included.



How many folks use upstream seconds, and without an OPV, anymore?



Bob

Bob...there is no such thing as ''free service for life''...the ''free kits'' hook does not include 50/60 dollars per hour for shop labour or does it include ''free shop supplies'' for which the customer is paying up to 130% mark-up...Christo-Lube and Q-tips are expensive...

Believe me I know from where I speak...a lot of times what happens if the reg set comes to the shop looking ''clean''...the IP is checked...the ''cracking pressure is checked...the hoses are checked...the regs are rinsed...the ''free kit'' stays in the shop...and the customer still pays $120. for labour...parts and ''supplies''...the tech has spent all of 20 minutes...you got one new mouth-piece because the tech advised one mouth-piece had a hole in it...funny the second stage wasn't sucking water when you brought it in...in reality the tech accidentally punctured the mouth-piece cutting off the zip tie...

Are the regs fine as is...probably...they were checked...visually inspected...and determined to be acceptable...by a ''professional''...

Is this what should have been done...absolutely not...does it happen...more than frequently...was it free...ya right...

Nothing is free...

Safe Diving...Warren

 

[Bob DBF]

Bob...there is no such thing as ''free service for life''..

It was an attempt at humor, I know there isn't, but for that price there should be.


Bob

 

[JackD342]

So here's a question/situation that I hope I will get some insight to:
I just left my LDS and picked up my newly serviced reg (Aqualung Legend). You know, the same LDS I had my reg serviced at one year ago. I got it back the same as I always do. They give you the little read out with that neat little graph that shows all of this tech'y information that only repair techs and reg geeks know about, but is probably important. Then there is that little plastic zip baggie with all of those "O" rings and little parts in it that are probably worth $3 new. And then theres the most important part they give you besides your reg: THE BILL!

Wow! $206 for a reg service. It was about the same last year. Maybe about $16 cheaper last year. I always wrote it off as no big deal. It's my reg and it's my life down there. But as I was driving home I got to wondering... Wouldn't it be the same amount of money to just by a cheap Mares or Cressi, $200 reg every year instead of a service? I mean in 2 years I have already spent $400 in repairs!
In 3 years I've already spent in repairs what the regulator costs. And then in 5-10 years what do we do? Replace the regulator with a newer (better) one. I'm a recreational diver and don't do anything technical. I'm asking because I seriously don't know. Yes, my reg is better than some of those cheaper ones. But hey, do I need that? The cheaper regs are made for recreational use and it's not like they are junk. They probably don't last as long but hey, that's not the issue. I would use it for one year and toss it or sell it on eBay for a few bucks.

I'd be interested to know what other people's thoughts are. Especially those of a qualified reg service person. Could service personnel be pricing themselves out of business?

Jay-
I don't see anywhere in the thread mention of whether you bought the Legend at this shop, or if they are even an Aqualung dealer. If they aren't that might partly explain what sounds like a high sticker price on the service. If they had to send it out for service, they might just be passing along someone else's "retail" for labor and parts, plus a mark-up, and maybe even some shipping charges. Good idea or not, that is what some folks do when presented with a brand they can't service. Others, including myself, work hard to find an option where they can avoid passing those extra costs on to the customer, in order to avoid driving them to another shop. I would rather collect something than nothing, and keep you coming back. {although if it is a brand that isn't sold for miles and miles around, then I pass on the shipping charges, since they would incur that cost anyway} Also, most mainline brands will only sell parts to their retail dealers, which includes the ability to be reimbursed for "free parts for life" programs. So a "shop" that ONLY services and doesn't sell gear, likely has no direct relationship with the manufacturer, and may or may not have a work around to source those parts kits, free or not. Not explaining it away, just trying to educate a bit on the mechanics of it all. So if you would have to drive for hours, twice, to bring to another service center, it is left to you decide if that "convenience fee" is worthwhile to you or not.

But if they are the AL dealer that sold you that regulator, I don't know what they were thinking doing an overhaul at year one, unless it was found necessary upon inspection.

 

[CT-Rich]

What Bob posted + I was advised to read Regulator Savvy bought it read it and learned a lot. I fix / maintain everything I own, the cars, the boiler, the solar system, I built the PC I'm using to post. They used to call us "jack of all trades master of none". If I had been born 10-15 early I probably would have learned to dive by reading the New Science Of Skin and Scuba Diving.

In fairness, Afterdark missed out on something like six weeks of diving fixing his car.... only so the engine could fall out of his wife’s car....

 

[Blasto]

No. They have to "overhaul" it. That may pertain to other models. Some, like the Atomic T3 only need to be serviced every 3 years, but the up-front cost is way up there.

Supposedly. I've seen them go a lot longer without a hint of needing a service.

Really, if you're not diving every day, a reg's service interval can be extended to 3-5 years. More and you're getting into o-ring aging. If money's an issue, I'd question the need to service until you get a hint of issues (or 5-6 years run out, at which point you should anyway).


P.S. And the poll is silly. Neither. Get a good reg and service it at reasonable intervals. Usage and care do matter.

 

[Photo Girl]

My local LDS won't touch my Poseidon. So I bring it to a guy in Key Largo when I'm down there, which is only every several years. Never had a problem, and my Poseidon is older than I am (a hand-me-down). But I am very good about rinsing my gear after every dive.

 

[CT-Rich]

My MK25/G260 were bought used, almost new. Typical story of a guy got into diving hot and heavy and found he wasn’t into the time commitment and was selling the gear after a couple of years in storage. There is plenty of good/great gear available used on line without dumping crap on the market.

My daughter was pissed when I told her that shop was declining to service my 1981 Sherwood Magnum because the manufacturer was no longer supporting the the rebuild kits. It is still a great regulator and she likes it better than the SP set up I bought her to replace it.

I am not one of those “oh my god, it’s life support equipment!!!!” People, but those who don’t rinse their gear after each day of diving are setting themselves up to bitch about service costs and crappy performance. They are also the ones that will complain about crotch rot and wetsuit funk. Take care of your sh*t and it will take care of you. My gear gets serviced every 2 or 3 years or sooner as needed.