Redesigning AOW

[emttim]

With respect, coming from someone with less than a year's experience ... and almost as many C-cards as dives ... I find that statement a bit presumptuous.

Nobody knows "everything there is to know about diving" ... and I haven't met too many on ScubaBoard who think that they do. I do, however, know a bunch of folks on here with massive amounts of experience in a wide variety of conditions and circumstances. Personally, even if I don't agree with them I'd be a fool to dismiss what they have to say without even considering the validity of it based on their experiences and perspectives.

At 50 dives, I thought I had it all figured out.

At 500 dives, I was starting to get a glimpse of just how much I had yet to learn.

Food for thought ... I'd be careful about dismissing those with the experience as simple "know-it-all's" ... maybe they're trying to tell you something important ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I don't find it presumptuous at all. I didn't claim in my post that I think I know everything...I'm far from that point which is unachievable anyways since there is always learning to be done. I stand by my statement that there's a significant about of morons on this board who may have a lot more dives but not necessarily an intelligent opinion on anything. I don't think it unwise at all to dismiss someone who cannot speak with at least the maturity level of a fifth grader which, unfortunately, I have seen people fail to do all too often on here.

If someone's trying to tell me something important, then they can do so with respect and maturity if not intelligence as well. If someone's opinion cannot be offered with at least those basic requirements, then I would challenge the validity of that opinion. However, my opinions are my own and everyone's mileage will vary. I simply am tired of the dumbasses on here and I choose to ignore them 100%.

And man, I wish I had as many C-cards as I did dives...25 C-cards would be a lot of money saved if I somehow could already have them...

I personally don't have a problem with the word "ADVANCED" being there, or what it stands for..I DO have a problem with the mindset that someone with 9 dives, all under the watchful eye of an instructor, can walk onto a boat, do a dive that's well above their skill level, but has no questions asked of them vs. someone with XX amount of dives, several that are more advanced than the dive they want to do, but gets turned away because they DO NOT have that particular C-Card.

There has to be some sort of clearinghouse for this. I know that some of the Key's operators WILL scan your logbook for you to do advanced level dives, but I know of operators that won't, and rely exclusively on whether you have the card. (not how many dives you have)

THAT is my problem with the whole thing. Having the "Advanced" certification does NOT make you an ADVANCED diver, it makes you a "learned" diver.

Well, the thing is that advanced means different things to different people. I do agree with this mindset to some extent...if someone does the bare minimum and finishes AOW with 9 dives, then I would say they probably haven't learned nearly as much as the diver who got his/her OW cert, went out and did some dives, and then did AOW...in my AOW class even the girl who went to me with Channel Islands and only had 11 dives before AOW instead of 4 was a much better diver than the others who started with only the dives from our OW class under their belt.

But when does it end? If some operators won't scan logbooks or they don't care if you're prepared for the dives they're going to take you out on, why should that be the agency's problem? Nobody can force shady businesspeople to become honest. And if the diver is so clueless as to not care whether he/she is prepared for that dive, well....should we really piss on Darwin's grave that much or maybe let him do his work for a change? Natural selection exists for a reason.

Simply put, if a dive boat requires me to have AOW to dive with them, I'll refuse to do business with them. No questions asked.

Well, fair enough, but what if the dives that boat goes on are simply incredible and you can't access them because of something as minor as not having AOW? Why cheat yourself of the opportunity to access more dive sites?

 

[ucfdiver]

Well, fair enough, but what if the dives that boat goes on are simply incredible and you can't access them because of something as minor as not having AOW? Why cheat yourself of the opportunity to access more dive sites?

There's too many boats that use common sense and don't give any more of a crap than I do about a diver telling them they're AOW, to do business with those that want to force you to contribute to the rec agencies fund raising schemes. NACD standards state my cert level with them can dive to 100ft deep, so if that's not good enough for them, oh well.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

I don't find it presumptuous at all. I didn't claim in my post that I think I know everything...I'm far from that point which is unachievable anyways since there is always learning to be done. I stand by my statement that there's a significant about of morons on this board who may have a lot more dives but not necessarily an intelligent opinion on anything. I don't think it unwise at all to dismiss someone who cannot speak with at least the maturity level of a fifth grader which, unfortunately, I have seen people fail to do all too often on here.

If someone's trying to tell me something important, then they can do so with respect and maturity if not intelligence as well. If someone's opinion cannot be offered with at least those basic requirements, then I would challenge the validity of that opinion. However, my opinions are my own and everyone's mileage will vary. I simply am tired of the dumbasses on here and I choose to ignore them 100%.

OK ... fair enough ... on the other hand, if you expect people to respond to you with respect, civility and maturity you need to do the same. I don't think referring to others as morons and dumbasses is going to get a lot of credibility on that score.

As with all things in life, what comes around tends to go around ... if you approach others with that attitude, it will come back to you.

For someone who demands maturity from others, your attitude doesn't strike me as particularly mature ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[emttim]

OK ... fair enough ... on the other hand, if you expect people to respond to you with respect, civility and maturity you need to do the same. I don't think referring to others as morons and dumbasses is going to get a lot of credibility on that score.

As with all things in life, what comes around tends to go around ... if you approach others with that attitude, it will come back to you.

For someone who demands maturity from others, your attitude doesn't strike me as particularly mature ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Considering I've been flamed extensively in other threads without provocation, believe me when I say that there are indeed a good amount of morons and dumbasses on this thread and I see no reason to candy coat what label they're referred to for the sake of political correctness.

What goes around does come around and I intend to make sure that happens by not simply lying down and taking it if someone acts like a POS towards me. I have zero tolerance for some of the people on this board and I have zero interest in trying to hide that fact. For the most part, however, people on this board are very pleasant to talk to and quite knowledgeable which is why I'm still here.

As far as my attitude, you're entitled to your opinion as I am mine, and that's fine. Not everyone's going to be on the same page so I'm not going to worry too much about it.

There's too many boats that use common sense and don't give any more of a crap than I do about a diver telling them they're AOW, to do business with those that want to force you to contribute to the rec agencies fund raising schemes. NACD standards state my cert level with them can dive to 100ft deep, so if that's not good enough for them, oh well.

Well, you have a very good point, I wasn't aware that NACD's certification level was higher than PADI's for Open Water.

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

The AOW certification doesnt just magically turn you into a better diver, neither does OW or any specialty. Anyone who thinks it does is mistaken. The courses are there to give you the tools to go and practice with to become a better diver or an "advanced diver". You cant just get the card and stop, you must utilize what was giving to you and learn how to perfect or get better at it.....Why change the name, it is an advanced class. Its not called Super Top Perfect Diver Certification

 

[emttim]

The AOW certification doesnt just magically turn you into a better diver, neither does OW or any specialty. Anyone who thinks it does is mistaken. The courses are there to give you the tools to go and practice with to become a better diver or an "advanced diver". You cant just get the card and stop, you must utilize what was giving to you and learn how to perfect or get better at it.....Why change the name, it is an advanced class. Its not called Super Top Perfect Diver Certification

:thumbs_up:

 

[DevonDiver]

Simply put, if a dive boat requires me to have AOW to dive with them, I'll refuse to do business with them. No questions asked.

Remember when you learnt to dive?

Remember signing something called the 'Standards of Safe Diving Practices'?

Remember a phrase that goes along the lines of... "I will only dive within the limitations of my experience and qualification"?

If you aren't qualified to perform a certain type of diving, then you can hardly blame a responsible dive school for not allowing you to do that. They are trying to look after your interests. After all, the diving community is full of plonkers who believe they are more capable than they actually are. The false confidence is usually due to the fact that the plonkers concerned haven't done the requisite training and, therefore, are ignorant of the dangers involved and different procedures required.

Another (big) issue is that most insurance companies (your holiday/diving insurance, the dive centres commercial insurers etc) also utilise the phrase "within the limits of the divers experience and qualification". If you exceed those limits, then you are likely to find your medical insurance claim rejected in the event of an accident.

It happened to a British AOW diver in the Red Sea last year. Got bent and was refused insurance because she had dived to 32m. I heard that she had to sell her house to cover her chamber bills......

 

[jviehe]

...those that want to force you to contribute to the rec agencies fund raising schemes.

That wasnt neccesary. Lay off the attacks on legitimate businesses who sell products that customers demand.

 

[DevonDiver]

those that want to force you to contribute to the rec agencies fund raising schemes.

So, as a professional diving instructor...I should teach you to dive for free and then live homeless?

Diving is an industry. It needs the agencies to create the materials, do the research and set the standards. It needs professional divers to run the courses, organise the boats, fill the tanks and lead the dives.

And it needs customers to pay the fees.....

Few people who work in diving make much money from it. We do it for the love of the oceans and the lifestyle. That said...we have bills to pay. No agency is going to run for a loss...they are businesses.

If everyone tool such a retarded attitude to the idea of paying a reasonable sum for a valuable course of education, the instructors would all quit, the agencies would close and none of you feckers would get to dive......

Why do some people think that diving is a big rip off? Do they expect it for free or something?

UCFDiver.... would you be insulted if some undervalued your work to the extend that they publicly stated it was a rip off and you shouldn't be paid for it?

 

[ucfdiver]

So, as a professional diving instructor...I should teach you to dive for free and then live homeless?

Diving is an industry. It needs the agencies to create the materials, do the research and set the standards. It needs professional divers to run the courses, organise the boats, fill the tanks and lead the dives.

And it needs customers to pay the fees.....

Few people who work in diving make much money from it. We do it for the love of the oceans and the lifestyle. That said...we have bills to pay. No agency is going to run for a loss...they are businesses.

If everyone tool such a retarded attitude to the idea of paying a reasonable sum for a valuable course of education, the instructors would all quit, the agencies would close and none of you feckers would get to dive......

Why do some people think that diving is a big rip off? Do they expect it for free or something?

UCFDiver.... would you be insulted if some undervalued your work to the extend that they publicly stated it was a rip off and you shouldn't be paid for it?

I'm dropping close to $500 on my most recent scuba course, and the next one in line will run me over $1000. USEFUL classes I have no issue with. I'll save up for those. It appears from the AOW bs and this thread that several people agree AOW is useless. Redesign it to where it teaches things other than what SHOULD have been covered in OW, and I'd happily pay for it and take it. I gladly paid for nitrox from SSI and never complained, and in the future I'm planning to take the rescue diving class....hopefully you can see where I was going with this...