Redesigning AOW

[Thalassamania]

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Well, you have a very good point, I wasn't aware that NACD's certification level was higher than PADI's for Open Water.

NACD does not have an entry level course, their first course is Cavern, then Introduction to, Apprentice and Full Cave. None of which prepare a diver for ocean diving from a boat, but then there's nothing that says AOW in it's current form does so either.

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Another (big) issue is that most insurance companies (your holiday/diving insurance, the dive centres commercial insurers etc) also utilise the phrase "within the limits of the divers experience and qualification". If you exceed those limits, then you are likely to find your medical insurance claim rejected in the event of an accident.

It happened to a British AOW diver in the Red Sea last year. Got bent and was refused insurance because she had dived to 32m. I heard that she had to sell her house to cover her chamber bills......

Sounds like a classically British problem, I am unaware of this being an issue in the USA.

 

[ucfdiver]

NACD does not have an entry level course, their first course is Cavern, then Introduction to, Apprentice and Full Cave. None of which prepare a diver for ocean diving from a boat, but then there's nothing that says AOW in it's current form does so either.

Exactly. They do allow you to dive to 100ft, teach gas management (which could be easily applied to get back to the boat), night diving (cavern/cave are basically that), and teach basic navigation, but several dive boats won't honor that. I personally think a good instructor or experienced dive buddy could prepare you to dive from a boat much better on site than AOW currently does.

Now all this goes out the window if you take AOW with a good instructor, but then the credit should be given to him/her, and not the course, since the course guidelines were exceeded.

 

[Thalassamania]

So, as a professional diving instructor...I should teach you to dive for free and then live homeless?

Diving is an industry. It needs the agencies to create the materials, do the research and set the standards. It needs professional divers to run the courses, organise the boats, fill the tanks and lead the dives.

Just barely, if you view it as an industry then recognize that it is smaller than Bocce Ball in terms of annual sales ... you know any "professional" Bocce Ball instructors? Actually I do know one, but he doesn't pretend to make a living at it, even though he has bills to pay, etc.

If everyone tool such a retarded attitude to the idea of paying a reasonable sum for a valuable course of education, the instructors would all quit, the agencies would close and none of you feckers would get to dive......

I for one was diving long before there were any agencies and I frankly don't see what the agencies have actually contributed to significantly advancing the art beyond where the original agencies took it, after that it was all just advertising and other bumph.

Why do some people think that diving is a big rip off? Do they expect it for free or something?

No, but they see no reason to support agencies that do not provide them with a product that they want to purchase. Fair enough, no?

UCFDiver.... would you be insulted if some undervalued your work to the extend that they publicly stated it was a rip off and you shouldn't be paid for it?

Not really, there are many, many "professions" that various people feel are without value or redeeming social importance. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. For example, it is not my intent to hurt your feelings (and I hope that I do not) but you offer nothing at all that I could ever imagine wanting to purchase, so I place little or no value (for me) on your work. Same goes for most of all of the agencies and their products. It does not hurt my feelings that you don't want that the feeling is likely mutual, why would I care? As long as no one requires that we purchase each others products, that's fine and we can each go our separate way.

But what UCFDIVER is objecting to is a requirement that he (of for that matter anyone) be required to purchase your product, not because you have something special to offer that he is desirous of learing, but just so that he can get access to a boat trip. He doesn't want to play that game, and quite frankly, neither do I.

 

[Blackwood]

But what UCFDIVER is objecting to is a requirement that he (of for that matter anyone) be required to purchase your product, not because you have something special to offer that he is desirous of learing, but just so that he can get access to a boat trip.

Exactly. And it's the widespread fallacious understanding of AOW that lead these charters to require it for access.

DevonDiver and a few others have argued that PADI (I don't think other agencies have been mentioned, and the thread is too long for me to go back and check, so I apologize if I missed a post) doesn't portray AOW as being "advanced" as is understood by a large portion of the dive community, but rather as being a small step after OW.

While that may be explicitly true, they certainly do nothing to curtail this misunderstanding (most likely because they benefit from it).

 

[Thalassamania]

Exactly. And it's the widespread fallacious understanding of AOW that lead these charters to require it for access.

DevonDiver and a few others have argued that PADI (I don't think other agencies have been mentioned, and the thread is too long for me to go back and check, so I apologize if I missed a post) doesn't portray AOW as being "advanced" as is understood by a large portion of the dive community, but rather as being a small step after OW.

While that may be explicitly true, they certainly do nothing to curtail this misunderstanding (most likely because they benefit from it).

As I've noted before this situation is akin to the child who killed his parents and threw himself on the mercy of the court because he was an orphan. There was a time when Advanced Diver meant exactly that. Back in those days the course was rigorous (not unlike the still extant LA County Advanced Course) and the AD card was required by dive boats going out to what were actually advanced dives. In a truly disingenuous move PADI changed their standards and course names so that their Advanced Openwater Diver was no longer such a course but was transformed into a couple of extra dives tacked onto the back end of their entry-level course. Up until then I had felt that PADI was a quality organization that was doing a good job, that was when I began to lose respect.

 

[jviehe]

I'm dropping close to $500 on my most recent scuba course, and the next one in line will run me over $1000. USEFUL classes I have no issue with. I'll save up for those. It appears from the AOW bs and this thread that several people agree AOW is useless. Redesign it to where it teaches things other than what SHOULD have been covered in OW, and I'd happily pay for it and take it. I gladly paid for nitrox from SSI and never complained, and in the future I'm planning to take the rescue diving class....hopefully you can see where I was going with this...

Useless TO YOU does not correlate to calling the entire thing a fundraising shceme with all that connotates. If you have a problem with a dive boat having useless requirements to dive IYO, then you are right not to patronize them. This again does not make it a fundraising scheme. Many operators simply find it more efficient to just require a set cert than to examine everyones individual circumstances. Point being you are sterotyping an entire population based on one anecdote. That is dumb.

Furthermore, please explain why you think underwater photograpghy, fish ID, or DPV diving should be taught in OW.

 

[DevonDiver]

Just barely, if you view it as an industry then recognize that it is smaller than Bocce Ball in terms of annual sales ... you know any "professional" Bocce Ball instructors? Actually I do know one, but he doesn't pretend to make a living at it, even though he has bills to pay, etc.

Thanks for telling me. I had noticed this already - as I am a professional diving instructor and I do make a living at my job.... as does everyone else I work alongside. We won't get rich... but then we know that. I've spent a few years driving sports cars and eating in Michelin starred restaurants...but find I now generally prefer the luxury of wearing flip-flops to work....

I for one was diving long before there were any agencies and I frankly don't see what the agencies have actually contributed to significantly advancing the art beyond where the original agencies took it, after that it was all just advertising and other bumph.

Why are you always such an arrogant plonker Thal? It is the same on every forum you post on.....

Of course.... YOU know better than every certifying agency in the world. That's nice and we are all glad for you.......

No, but they see no reason to support agencies that do not provide them with a product that they want to purchase. Fair enough, no?

Sure....which is why we do something like 14,000 certifications a year on my island.

I guess that 'sample' effectively defines a market demand???

Not really, there are many, many "professions" that various people feel are without value or redeeming social importance. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. For example, it is not my intent to hurt your feelings (and I hope that I do not) but you offer nothing at all that I could ever imagine wanting to purchase, so I place little or no value (for me) on your work. Same goes for most of all of the agencies and their products. It does not hurt my feelings that you don't want that the feeling is likely mutual, why would I care? As long as no one requires that we purchase each others products, that's fine and we can each go our separate way.

Well, that is YOU Thal...and, as we know, you are a living diving legend. The earlier poster was not a 'dive god', like yourself, so maybe he needs to think about getting some more instruction in order to fill the apparent voids in his current knowledge and skill base? If he does, he'll need a diving instructor to do that with....

But what UCFDIVER is objecting to is a requirement that he (of for that matter anyone) be required to purchase your product, not because you have something special to offer that he is desirous of learing, but just so that he can get access to a boat trip. He doesn't want to play that game, and quite frankly, neither do I.

If you want to drive a car...you need to pay for driving lessons. Would you be offended that a company refused to rent you a car if you had no license to drive it?

Same for diving...

At the moment, I am saving the money for a CCR. Would I expect a dive operation to let me dive the CCR until I had done the requisite course and obtained the correct qualifications for the unit? No. Am I thankful that the diving industry maintains such standards, so that the temptation to skimp on training/cost at the expense of safety is never an issue for me? Yes.

 

[Thalassamania]

Useless TO YOU does not correlate to calling the entire thing a fundraising shceme with all that connotates. If you have a problem with a dive boat having useless requirements to dive IYO, then you are right not to patronize them. This again does not make it a fundraising scheme. Many operators simply find it more efficient to just require a set cert than to examine everyones individual circumstances. Point being you are sterotyping an entire population based on one anecdote. That is dumb.

You may think it dumb, some of us think it an accurate description of a dumbed down course.

Furthermore, please explain why you think underwater photograpghy, fish ID, or DPV diving should be taught in OW.

Please explain to me how anyone could learn to do any of those things in an AOW class, the self-serving pretense of "introducing" someone to those things is not the same as "teaching" them, unless we need to discuss the PADI definition of "Mastery" once again.

 

[Blackwood]

Many operators simply find it more efficient to just require a set cert than to examine everyones individual circumstances.

Of course. It is clearly more efficient to recognize a cert than to delve into each customer's history.

Unfortunately, the cert that they are recognizing can in no way assure them that the card holder is qualified.

They are recognizing it as something that the agencies don't purportedly believe it to be, and certainly don't design it to be.

 

[DevonDiver]

Exactly. And it's the widespread fallacious understanding of AOW that lead these charters to require it for access.

I think this is more a case of depth, rather than 'advanced' dive site. AOW certifies a diver below 18m (to max 30m)....so any dive site deeper than 18m would mean that a diver would need the AOW certification to dive there. Hence, an 'advanced dive site'.

If a charter was insisting on an AOW qualification to dive on a site that wasn't deeper than 18m, but may present harsher conditions (current, viz etc) than most inexperienced divers would have encountered before - then they would be incorrect. AOW certification would not be indicative of any familiarity with these conditions....only a diver's logbook could substantiate that.

However, I would support any diving boat/operation that looked after the interests and safety of its customers by insisting upon higher qualifications for more demanding dives. It is just being conservative, and that can only be morally correct when safety is the greatest concern.

DevonDiver and a few others have argued that PADI (I don't think other agencies have been mentioned, and the thread is too long for me to go back and check, so I apologize if I missed a post) doesn't portray AOW as being "advanced" as is understood by a large portion of the dive community, but rather as being a small step after OW.

SSI have the equivalent 'Advanced Adventurer' certification. Again the same use of the 'A' word.....

While that may be explicitly true, they certainly do nothing to curtail this misunderstanding (most likely because they benefit from it).

Nothing?

Apart from the fact that PADI Instructors (like me) have spent hours of my personal time trying to clear up this misunderstanding......

And how would we "benefit from it"? The only product of this misunderstanding that I see on a regular basis is.... the muppets who come to my dive centre flagging around an AOW certification and expecting to be treated like diving royalty. Muppets who argue about having to complete scuba reviews if they haven't been in the water for 4 years. Muppets who can't understand why we put a depth restriction on them. Muppets who take up more than their fair allocation of instructor time in the dive centre because they think they know better.... all because their certification card has the 'A' word on it...