Redesigning AOW

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I still find it funny people get so upset over the word "advanced" in regards to recreational open water diving. It's an advanced form of rec diving, nothing more, nothing less. Advanced doesn't mean great, it means you've advanced past your OW course.
 
It all depends on the conditions you're diving in.

I started my diving in the UK, so low viz and cold water is the 'norm' for me. Now that I teach in the tropics, I run my classes on the basis that my trainee divers will learn the skills and procedures to dive anywhere... the only extra training they's need would be for drysuits etc.

Where I dive, due to typically low vis conditions, we emphasize many team concepts starting in OW class ... because if you manage to swim more than 2 or 3 meters from your dive buddy you may not see him again until you reach the surface.

What you're talking about is 'buddy skills', not team skills. Buddy skills are applicable anywhere - regardless of viz, current, temperature etc etc Team skills, by definition, are a very different animal. I've tried to illustrate the difference in a prior post.

We also tend to emphasize dive planning skills a bit more heavily than your typical recreational area might ... because we don't have divemasters here to lead people around. If you're gonna dive here, you need to know how to plan and execute your own dive without relying on someone else for assistance.

When I learnt to dive it was a case of OW + AOW in succession... followed by me and a buddy booking spaces on charter boats or shore diving... never a DM in sight. So I can understand what you are explaining here.

However, isn't this simply a requirement that should be addressed/taught to every OW diver? After all - an OW diver is expected to be trained to a level where they can safely dive independently without professional supervision.

As you say.... many 'resort areas' cannot see past their own ways of operation - assuming that their trainee divers will always have a DM to guide them on dives. This is technically wrong and it is also ignorant of diving procedures in other locations. IMHO, it is also short-changing trainee divers.

I don't see that any of that stuff has anything to do with DIR, specifically ... didn't you say you quoted it out of a PADI DSAT manual?

The DIR crowd use the concept of Team Skills slightly differently...and apply that to both recreational and technical diving. When someone mentions 'team skills', rather than 'buddy skills' in a post, I have found that it can often be a pre-cursor to a DIR vs PADI slanging match. No need for that here.

His point still stands. If it's a prerequisite for ANYTHING that means one of two things:

a) they hold it to impart some valuable skill or ability that equips one to succeed in the subsequent course.

b) it's a shameless and transparent ploy to get another PIC fee out of people.

Now, which would be more pejorative?

Personally, I feel it is a valuable course. I know that, as an instructor, I can impart a lot of knowledge and develop a lot of skill over the space of 5 dives. This is especially true for newbie divers. I can take someone from zero to diver in the space of 4 dives on an OW course.... give me another 5 dives with them and I'll make them a lot better and more confident.

We can see that there is a big gap between the OW and Rescue courses. AOW fills that gap sufficiently. What more could we do at that level?

With SSI, students can progress straight from OW to Rescue.... at first I thought this was a positive thing... but then we have to deal with rescue students whose basic diving skills are not sufficiently developed and we see too much task loading on drills such as lifting unresponsive divers to the surface.......
 
I still find it funny people get so upset over the word "advanced" in regards to recreational open water diving. It's an advanced form of rec diving, nothing more, nothing less. Advanced doesn't mean great, it means you've advanced past your OW course.

Personally, I find it ridiculous. I won't drop names but it seems like a good amount of people on this board seem to think they know everything there is to know about diving and therefore have the "correct" opinion on everything including AOW. How much a diver gets out of AOW completely depends on the diver. If someone dicks it off and does the bare minimum to pass the class, then that diver will be a bare minimum AOW diver. On the other hand, if the diver tries to excel and know his/her **** as much as possible, then that diver will have earned the classification of Advanced. I agree that Advanced shouldn't mean you're some ultra-experienced diver which it seems some of the "vets" perceive it as. The only way to truly get an idea of how experienced or "good" a diver is to observe them during a dive and/or look at their logbook. If the person has 1,000 dives in the same quarry under the same conditions, I'd argue that they still don't know jack **** compared to someone with 50 dives in a variety of dive sites & conditions...it's all relative. Plus it wouldn't surprise me if there's divers out there with over a thousand dives who still silt up the bottom and generally look like a complete idiot underwater...they're probably the easiest to spot too since I'd wager that they're the ones bragging about what constitutes experienced and how good they are.
 
Personally, I find it ridiculous. I won't drop names but it seems like a good amount of people on this board seem to think they know everything there is to know about diving and therefore have the "correct" opinion on everything including AOW. How much a diver gets out of AOW completely depends on the diver. If someone dicks it off and does the bare minimum to pass the class, then that diver will be a bare minimum AOW diver. On the other hand, if the diver tries to excel and know his/her **** as much as possible, then that diver will have earned the classification of Advanced. I agree that Advanced shouldn't mean you're some ultra-experienced diver which it seems some of the "vets" perceive it as. The only way to truly get an idea of how experienced or "good" a diver is to observe them during a dive and/or look at their logbook. If the person has 1,000 dives in the same quarry under the same conditions, I'd argue that they still don't know jack **** compared to someone with 50 dives in a variety of dive sites & conditions...it's all relative. Plus it wouldn't surprise me if there's divers out there with over a thousand dives who still silt up the bottom and generally look like a complete idiot underwater...they're probably the easiest to spot too since I'd wager that they're the ones bragging about what constitutes experienced and how good they are.

I've been diving since 1999 and have yet to be in a situation where I've thought to myself "gee, I wish I would have taken AOW". As I've stated, I'm BASIC OW and Nitrox, and that's realistically the only C cards I'll ever hold from SSI Padi, or Naui.
 
2. AOW is an abbreviation of Advanced OPEN WATER. It is an 'advancement' from Open Water. It is an addendum to an Open Water course. It is not not not not not not not not not not an Advanced DIVER course! It will not make you expert... or even 'experienced'. It shows you a little more than you learnt as an OW diver... just a little more...and you have someone knowledgeable with you to hold your hand - which is nice.....


Here's what you need to be a great diver.....

1. Good buoyancy and trim.
2. The ability to plan dives within limits.
3. The ability to follow that plan by monitoring depth and time.
4. The ability to recognise and respond to certain diving maladies (narcosis).
5. The ability to utilise additional equipment (torch, compass etc).
6. The ability to rescue or assist another diver (plus 1st aid skills).

Well you have sum it up 100% and I do agree with you totally!
 
I.



What you're talking about is 'buddy skills', not team skills. Buddy skills are applicable anywhere - regardless of viz, current, temperature etc etc Team skills, by definition, are a very different animal. I've tried to illustrate the difference in a prior post.



When I learnt to dive it was a case of OW + AOW in succession... followed by me and a buddy booking spaces on charter boats or shore diving... never a DM in sight. So I can understand what you are explaining here.

However, isn't this simply a requirement that should be addressed/taught to every OW diver? After all - an OW diver is expected to be trained to a level where they can safely dive independently without professional supervision.

As you say.... many 'resort areas' cannot see past their own ways of operation - assuming that their trainee divers will always have a DM to guide them on dives. This is technically wrong and it is also ignorant of diving procedures in other locations. IMHO, it is also short-changing trainee divers.



The DIR crowd use the concept of Team Skills slightly differently...and apply that to both recreational and technical diving. When someone mentions 'team skills', rather than 'buddy skills' in a post, I have found that it can often be a pre-cursor to a DIR vs PADI slanging match. No need for that here.



Personally, I feel it is a valuable course. I know that, as an instructor, I can impart a lot of knowledge and develop a lot of skill over the space of 5 dives. This is especially true for newbie divers. I can take someone from zero to diver in the space of 4 dives on an OW course.... give me another 5 dives with them and I'll make them a lot better and more confident.

We can see that there is a big gap between the OW and Rescue courses. AOW fills that gap sufficiently. What more could we do at that level?

With SSI, students can progress straight from OW to Rescue.... at first I thought this was a positive thing... but then we have to deal with rescue students whose basic diving skills are not sufficiently developed and we see too much task loading on drills such as lifting unresponsive divers to the surface.......

Andy. Hi. I am with you on this one. Best progression is to do AOWD pretty quickly after OWD and get COMFORTABLE and have FUN before going on to RD at say 50 logged dives?

I have been watching your posts and no doubt about it, you are right AOWD = advanced OPEN WATER.

The question is "Why do so many people keep knocking it"?

You sound like the kind of guy I would like to dive with.

Cheers.
 
It was interesting to read the post above by Bouyant1 about the first dive on the Wreck Diver Speciality course as being the same dive as the "Adventure" Wreck Dive on the PADI AOW course - ie. going down and looking at a wreck.

There is a lot of talk about how the AOW is just a bit too soft for the label "advanced". I am going through various speciality courses over the course of this summer to get my PADI Master Scuba Diver rating (qualification junkie), and I have to say, the majority of those have struck me so far as pretty danged soft themselves. I appreciate it is all recreational diving and not technical diving or anything terribly hard core, but if MSD is supposed to be the pinnacle of non-professional recreational diving education, you would have thought that there would be a bit more to it.

- Deep Speciality Dive #3, examing the effect of depth on colour changes, and do a 7 minute simulated emergency decompression stop.

- Night Speciality Dive #2, demonstrate hand signals, navigate your way back to the exit point with at least 500 psi remaining.

It's all just a little bit soft given the press that PADI give it (Join the best of the best in recreational scuba diving. ... Do it by becoming a PADI Master Scuba Diver – a rating that puts you in a class of distinction).

I am sure Ice Diver and Cavern Diver courses must be pretty hard core, but the rest of them, well, I don't think they make you a master of much other than your own cheque book.

Why should there be more to it? Its a recreational activity. Most divers do it for fun, not to be experts and argue on the interent. The PADI system of education is designed towards these types of divers, focusing on recreation, not technical ability. I really think all of the complaints here stem from what the internet community of divers want diving to be like, rather than the education system as it was intended. Diving education is an entertainment service sold to people who seek adventure.
 
Personally, I find it ridiculous. I won't drop names but it seems like a good amount of people on this board seem to think they know everything there is to know about diving and therefore have the "correct" opinion on everything including AOW. How much a diver gets out of AOW completely depends on the diver. If someone dicks it off and does the bare minimum to pass the class, then that diver will be a bare minimum AOW diver. On the other hand, if the diver tries to excel and know his/her **** as much as possible, then that diver will have earned the classification of Advanced. I agree that Advanced shouldn't mean you're some ultra-experienced diver which it seems some of the "vets" perceive it as. The only way to truly get an idea of how experienced or "good" a diver is to observe them during a dive and/or look at their logbook. If the person has 1,000 dives in the same quarry under the same conditions, I'd argue that they still don't know jack **** compared to someone with 50 dives in a variety of dive sites & conditions...it's all relative. Plus it wouldn't surprise me if there's divers out there with over a thousand dives who still silt up the bottom and generally look like a complete idiot underwater...they're probably the easiest to spot too since I'd wager that they're the ones bragging about what constitutes experienced and how good they are.
Good to see reason is finally prevailing here. Im convinced the complaint here is that the industry has locked on to advanced to indicate that a diver has some sort of expertise to go on a more challenging dive, even though that was never intended by PADI. It just is what it is. The only think you can assume about someone with an AOW cert, is that they have done a deep dive and a navigation dive. As usual, its PADIs fault or responsibility to change everything they do to accomodate everyone elses opinions. They may well do that, but only if its profitable to them. For now, their business plan works fine.
 
Why should there be more to it? Its a recreational activity. Most divers do it for fun, not to be experts and argue on the interent. The PADI system of education is designed towards these types of divers, focusing on recreation, not technical ability. I really think all of the complaints here stem from what the internet community of divers want diving to be like, rather than the education system as it was intended. Diving education is an entertainment service sold to people who seek adventure.

It's seems we are not providing enough entertainment or adventure for some people. :D

I know there are some guys in Australia who have developed the Heli Diver Specialty

Heli Dive, Sydney AUSTRALIA

I think they have a monopoly on it. I guess a lot of people want to conquer their fears and live their dreams? Or they wanted to be spec ops frogmen but their parents talked them out of it?:wink:
 
It's an advanced form of rec diving, nothing more,

No. Its an extremely basic entry level form of whatever "recreational diving" is supposed to be.

Its done by people on potentially their 5th ever dive and by people who in theory may NEVER have dived without an instructor.
 

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