Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[tursiops]

We reserve "pony bottles" for left sided slung Decompression Bottles or Stages e.g. AL 80 or AL 40.

You are conflating anything slung as all being the same. Few will agree.
Put down the GUE material, and read something else. A pony is specifically NOT a stage or a deco bottle, nor does it need to be slung.

 

[Hartattack]

Based on this quote, you've obviously gone beyond the newly-certified diver scenario and made a blanket statement across all skill levels during recreational dives. That is why you're getting such push back, but you keep repeating "for a new diver". That case has already been rebutted several times by the fact NEW divers are likely to be closer to their buddies so an air share IS a feasible (and preferred) course of action.

I wish you would stop asking such leading questions and putting words into people's mouths. The one-size fits all view you are pitching just doesn't fly with everyone. In SOME cases involving a new diver, I think most pro-pony respondents would say they would recommend a pony. In OTHER cases involving a new diver, they would not make such a recommendation.


With all the instructor credentials you cite, you should know that learning doesn't stop when you get your card in the mail. As has been pointed out, carrying a pony isn't rocket science. If someone dives in conditions where they would feel more comfortable not having to depend on their buddy, it's an easy solution.

Why are you assuming they have "less than adequate" training? Prior to the first time I carried a pony, I practiced deployment on land. That first dive with it, I also practiced deployment in a non-emergency situation. Ever after, I felt confident that tool was available to me.

Point 1: You're right; it has been answered, yet some continue to debate that a new diver should have one or come after me with strawmen and red herrings because they do not want to admit they were wrong to give that advice. After my quote, I explain why they could be unnecessary in other applications for advanced divers, depending on what that dive calls for. To each their own, however, my team nor I use a pony bottle in this way. I gave my reasons why in the dive plan.

Point 2: All I am asking for is calcification. Tone and intent are lost in text conversations.

Point 3: Learning never should stop, I believe in that, and I also recommend that to all of my students. However, the internet and the rise of misinformation have led our country into an entire mess of epic proportions so, when I see horrible advice being thrown around on SB and other boards like this, I'm going to call it out, as should every professional. It could be golf, legal advice, or any other subject. Nevertheless, my view still stands, new divers should not carry a pony bottle, and it depends on advanced diving.

Point 4: Are you asking about the new diver in this question? Because most new divers receive their certification in two weekends if that. Training in our sport is severely lacking and needs a lot of help.

 

[MrBigfins]

Once again, my question is not answered. Would you recommend a pony bottle to a new diver?

Your red herrings:

Experience needed if recommending a pony bottle to a new diver: Training via instructor or mentor should be included on how to: analyze a tank properly, calculate gas and SCR, gas switch procedures while in trim and buoyancy to mitigate further risk and panic, and include drills on the examples above. This, however, is not telling a new diver to grab a reg and breathe.

Ascent rates have been debated and answered. I add that rate for conservatism; you don't like it, go faster.

Reg failure should be an uncommon problem if a new diver is taught about gear service and cycles. If it is rented or club equipment, that is on those who carry liability insurance.

EVERY skill you recommend teaching for a pony bottle is something a diver should learn for back gas (or wherever main gas is stored)

SHOULD is the important word here, what happens when it does? I don't care for letting my heirs fight an insurance company, I'd prefer to have my alternate air source.

I wouldn't recommend a pony bottle to a new diver because they don't manage the gas they already have with main cylinder. I would discuss proper procedure with ANY new diver. And switching regs from primary to pony is no more complicated than switching from primary to Octo, which ALL divers are trained to do for an OOA situation.

 

[Hartattack]

You are conflating anything slung as all being the same. Few will agree.
Put down the GUE material, and read something else. A pony is specifically NOT a stage or a deco bottle, nor does it need to be slung.

Another strawman.

I am providing context to make sure folks following understand that I view pony bottles and stage/deco bottles as completely different things.

You still haven't answered my question. Would you recommend a pony bottle to a new diver?

 

[Hartattack]

EVERY skill you recommend teaching for a pony bottle is something a diver should learn for back gas (or wherever main gas is stored)

SHOULD is the important word here, what happens when it does? I don't care for letting my heirs fight an insurance company, I'd prefer to have my alternate air source.

I wouldn't recommend a pony bottle to a new diver because they don't manage the gas they already have with main cylinder. I would discuss proper procedure with ANY new diver. And switching regs from primary to pony is no more complicated than switching from primary to Octo, which ALL divers are trained to do for an OOA situation.

Why not teach them how to manage the gas they already have and factor in a reserve? This in turn, gives the new diver planning skills and situational awareness. Where switching gas to a pony bottle becomes a problem or a procedure is when the new diver does not have the training to analyze the gas in the pony bottle before each dive. If we are talking about "what if's" with regulator failures and torn O-rings—what if the new diver breathes 100% 02 at depth during an emergency because the shop filled the tank like they normally fill deco bottles by mistake?

 

[jstreetley]

You still haven't answered my question. Would you recommend a pony bottle to a new diver?

That wasn't actually your original question. The title is 'Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?' When you got pushback on that, you moved the goalposts. Your OP stated:

All dive plans and ideas are welcome.

but I think it's clear that only ideas you already agree with are welcome, and this thread will continue until everyone agrees with you or gives up posting.

 

[tursiops]

Would you recommend a pony bottle to a new diver?

If by "new" you mean recently certified, No, of course not; who said that? But that was not the question in the other thread that started this train wreck. the OP was not a new diver, had a number of dives, was taking the Deep class, etc. He was more than ready for a pony, but you said no...because it was recreational diving and all he needed was to calculate mingas. You backed yourself into a corner and are hoping to get out by saying NEW NEW NEW over and over. You insist that carrying a pony is harder than carrying doubles; after all, you are willing to put "new" (whatever that means, which seems to be context-dependent) divers in doubles, but not give them a pony.

 

[James79]

what if the new diver breathes 100% 02 at depth during an emergency because the shop filled the tank like they normally fill deco bottles by mistake?

So you recommend all divers (including newly minted OW) at all shops use an O2 analyzer (that they likely aren't trained on) to test every tank they rent? If we are going down the example of that rabbit hole (if a shop will fill a pony with something other than requested, then the mix in any tank they provide is suspect).

Why not teach them how to manage the gas they already have and factor in a reserve?

I still haven't heard why this is mutually exclusive with carrying a pony. The training can consist of a briefing and dry run at the surface, followed by practice switches at the safety stop..... not rocket surgery. A buddy of mine learned, by this method, on dive number 9. Is it for everyone.... no. Is it for some... certainly.

I am a technology nerd, and rebuild, maintain, and sometimes make my gear from scratch. I know just how far I can trust it. For someone who is content with there regs being a "magic black box," they may not have that comfort level..... regardless of pros telling them how reliable they are. Is a pony (as a failsafe in case of primary reg set malfunction) a security blanket for that..... probably. Does it hurt? Not as long as they have a modicum of mentorship/training/practice in it's use. It is up to the mentor/instructor, and the diver, to assess if they are ready for the minor increase in options/complexity.

Respectfully,

James

 

[scubaozy]

Just as I'm sure you'd use a Land Rover to go somewhere off-road (and a Land Cruiser if you want to come back!) rather than a saloon car. Tools for the job. Do need some training and practice too

lol, sure, I will save up for an off-road vehicle so that I can drive it up and down in the autobahn like the majority..

 

[Hartattack]

That wasn't actually your original question. The title is 'Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?' When you got pushback on that, you moved the goalposts. Your OP stated:

but I think it's clear that only ideas you already agree with are welcome, and this thread will continue until everyone agrees with you or gives up posting.

That's fair, and some folks have given some wonderful examples of when they might be helpful, to which I acknowledged with a "great point" or "That's fair" and then asked more questions or referred back to the new diver debate in the original thread for clarification. I even went so far as to add a dive plan as an example of my thought process and why I wouldn't recommend one to a new diver or anyone, honestly. I still think they are a marketing gimmick, especially something like a share air or 19cuft.

But what I was waiting for and wanted to "hash out," as the mod said in the beginning, is the folks who attacked me in the original thread. @tursiops @grf88 and others who want to bash GUE because I am a part of that crowd, so anything I say is wrong to them, and they will find any ways to discredit that agency because someone hurt them in the past, I would assume, yet have never taken a class.