Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[Hartattack]

Delete

 

[Wibble]

We reserve "pony bottles" for left sided slung Decompression Bottles or Stages e.g. AL 80 or AL 40. We also calculate this gas into our dive plans. However, this now goes into the Rec 3, Tech 1, Cave 2 levels.

No.

Pony is a term commonly used for the smaller 3 litre cylinders fixed to the primary 12 or 15 litre cylinder.

Stage Cylinders is a term commonly used for any cylinder hung on the left OR RIGHT hand side that is not primary gas. This could be a redundant bailout (e.g. rebreather bailout or your use of Pony), a decompression stage or a bottom stage.

Redundant Bailout gas, e.g. your Pony example, must not be included in the dive plan. It is purely for emergency use and, aside from verifying it's on and breathable, should never be used.

 

[tursiops]

So we agree. A new diver should not need a pony; great.

Words in my mouth. You asked if I would recommend a pony to a new diver. I did not say they might not need it.
I am not going to debate your silly argument, because no matter what I say you will twist it to either agree with you or ignore it or move your goalposts. That is not a debate, it is obnoxious bullying.

 

[Hartattack]

So you recommend all divers (including newly minted OW) at all shops use an O2 analyzer (that they likely aren't trained on) to test every tank they rent? If we are going down the example of that rabbit hole (if a shop will fill a pony with something other than requested, then the mix in any tank they provide is suspect).

I still haven't heard why this is mutually exclusive with carrying a pony. The training can consist of a briefing and dry run at the surface, followed by practice switches at the safety stop..... not rocket surgery. A buddy of mine learned, by this method, on dive number 9. Is it for everyone.... no. Is it for some... certainly.

I am a technology nerd, and rebuild, maintain, and sometimes make my gear from scratch. I know just how far I can trust it. For someone who is content with there regs being a "magic black box," they may not have that comfort level..... regardless of pros telling them how reliable they are. Is a pony (as a failsafe in case of primary reg set malfunction) a security blanket for that..... probably. Does it hurt? Not as long as they have a modicum of mentorship/training/practice in it's use. It is up to the mentor/instructor, and the diver, to assess if they are ready for the minor increase in options/complexity.

Respectfully,

James

Point 1: Absolutely. I believe you should analyze your tanks before every dive. I don't care if you are a new diver or course director. I have seen this problem happen more than any other problem in the industry, especially with deco/stage/pony bottles.

Point 2: It is all about control. Can you control your position in the water while task loaded and switching gas IMHO.

Point 3: That's fair and to each their own. I have given my views on why I disagree.

 

[Hartattack]

F

Words in my mouth. You asked if I would recommend a pony to a new diver. I did not say they might not need it.
I am not going to debate your silly argument, because no matter what I say you will twist it to either agree with you or ignore it or move your goalposts. That is not a debate, it is obnoxious bullying.

Fair, I'll delete that part out.

let's debate why I think they are worthless in other avenues like an advanced course or deep diver. Let's go back to my original dive plan. If you factor in for min gas as a team, you do not require a pony. This CAN be debated for commercial, scientific, hunting, or other working dives; I will agree with you on that. So with that said, should I repost my dive plan? Also, if you do not like the ascent rate, speed it up; that's not the argument; I left more than enough gas in my calculations for one to do that. However, if one would like more bottom time, I recommend moving to double tanks to add redundancy, streamlining, and a balanced rig.

 

[Wibble]

... Now, let's debate why I think they are worthless in other avenues like an advanced course or deep diver. Let's go back to my original dive plan. If you factor in for min gas as a team, you do not require a pony.

Complete rubbish.

A diver should be self-sufficient and carrying sufficient redundancy for the perceived risks during the dive. If shallow this may be "bolt to the surface", if deeper, e.g. where there's a mandatory deco safety stop, then you need redundancy. This is especially if diving in poorer visibility water or on wrecks where there's a snag or entrapment risk.

The point of redundancy is that it should not factor into your gas planning, or if part of it (sidemount or twinset) then rules of thirds, etc. should be considered. A redundant bailout Pony NEVER forms part of the gas planning

 

[Hartattack]

Complete rubbish.

A diver should be self-sufficient and carrying sufficient redundancy for the perceived risks during the dive. If shallow this may be "bolt to the surface", if deeper, e.g. where there's a mandatory deco safety stop, then you need redundancy. This is especially if diving in poorer visibility water or on wrecks where there's a snag or entrapment risk.

The point of redundancy is that it should not factor into your gas planning, or if part of it (sidemount or twinset) then rules of thirds, etc. should be considered. A redundant bailout Pony NEVER forms part of the gas planning

"A diver should be self-sufficient and carrying sufficient redundancy for the perceived risks during the dive."

I agree! the way to do this is to calculate minimum gas into your recreational dive plan. Would you like to see how to do that, so you will not have to carry a pony bottle on your next dive?

 

[Wibble]

Why not teach them how to manage the gas they already have and factor in a reserve?

They are. What's the "must surface with 50 bar / 750 psi" rule all about?

 

[KenGordon]

Why not make a direct ascent if you cannot find your buddy,

Inquest: Tragic scuba diver's death was accident

A jury has concluded that the death of a scuba diver following a lesson was accidental.

www.kentonline.co.uk

Dead bolting to the surface from 6m.

Of course ponies kill people too Annual Diving Incident Report

 

[grf88]

"A diver should be self-sufficient and carrying sufficient redundancy for the perceived risks during the dive."

I agree! the way to do this is to calculate minimum gas into your recreational dive plan. Would you like to see how to do that, so you will not have to carry a pony bottle on your next dive?

What part of "it doesn't matter how much gas is in the tank if you are unable to access it" do you not get.