Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[DAJ]

Depends on how far down the “what if” rabbit hole you are willing to travel. Is a sudden and complete failure of your system possible…yes. Is it probable…no. If you are cruising at 100 mph and your car suddenly dies, you gradually slow and move off the road. If you are 100 feet under water and you go to take a breath that is not there, you have a much larger problem.

An OOA scenario at 100 feet and your dive buddy is 30 feet away looking at something else besides you can create all kinds of drama. The logical action would be to swim the 30 feet to the buddy versus the 100 feet to the surface but I would argue that the average panicked diver in this type of situation will not respond logically and will be heading to the surface. If you only have 10 feet of vis and can’t see your buddy, you won’t take the time to look. Even if they do swim to their buddy, it won’t be a casual swim over, get their attention, give them the OOA signal, and wait for a regulator. Chances are they are going to swim straight into their dive buddy and grab whatever air source is the closest. Most likely their buddies primary reg.

Again, I am not advocating one way or the other, simply pointing out that while the failure can happen, in all likelihood it won’t but some still feel the need to address this remote possibility by carrying an independent secondary system. Again, carrying it and effectively deploying it in an emergency are two different things. While both sides can support their position, it comes down to personal choice and what makes you feel more comfortable in the water. I approach this from a paradigm of decades as a PSD where I dove with backups for my backups. I always dive with redundancy as I prefer to rely on myself to get out of trouble rather than another diver. While this is my philosophy, it may not be desirable for others. I don’t think adding a pony to a novice diver is that difficult as long as they know how, when, and why it is utilized.

My only argument against a pony is in its use in case you run your main cylinder(s) too low to complete the dive. While I have heard people say they ran out of air and used their buddy to complete the dive, I find this type of dive “planning” totally unacceptable. Fortunately, I have never dove with anyone that simply ran out of air. The people I dive with do not take diving lightly and approach it with the respect it deserves. If I have to dive with folks I don’t know, I will periodically do air checks to see how consumption is going. Fortunately, most divers with lackadaisical approaches to diving tend to congregate so they can generally share their misery together.

 

[Hartattack]

IF he didn't, I did. THe problems is that you never answered the question. You think you did, but you didn't. As I will try again below, I asked WHY you need to reserve enough air to do a 9 minute ascent from 80 feet, and the only answer you gave to the question (WHY?) was that Jarrod Jablonski said to do it. I don't see that as an adequate answer.

To repeat....

You are saying that on every blessed recreational dive I do, I should reserve enough gas to do a 9 minute ascent with an OOA buddy from 80 feet, or the equivalent from other depths. You are telling me that I need to do much, much shorter recreational dives than I do now because something that has never happened in my lifetime of diving or in the lifetimes of the diving of anyone I know might happen, and if it does, I have to use that specific ascent strategy.

Given the choice between shortening my dive to accommodate that strategy and wearing a pony, I will take the pony.

I offered a second choice earlier. You can do the same dive plan I am doing now, get the extra bottom time, and still have plenty of gas to get an OOA diver to the surface at a safe ascent rate. That's the choice I use.

So, to repeat the question for the umpteenth time, why (in terms of science) is it necessary to take 9 minutes to the surface from 80 feet, and why is it necessary on such an ascent to do practice decompression stops along the way?

This has been answered. I chose this plan out of conservatism. If you would like, you can plan for a direct ascent to the surface and factor that time ~ 3 minutes into your schedule to maximize bottom time, or do something even more innovative and learn on doubles in a primer course or through mentors at a later date. However, would you recommend a pony bottle to a new diver? You haven't answered that yet.

 

[Hartattack]

A CESA should be the last resort. You started this thread so you should try to remember the title which does not mention a new diver. That was another thread. It also depends on what you consider to be a new diver.

Page 1 of this thread:

"To give context, in the other thread, the use of a pony bottle was recommended to a new diver who asked the question. IMHO, I don’t think they are necessary at all in any recreational diving application. However, a stage or deco bottle will have it’s use depending on the dive parameters (tech) and this added gas would be calculated into the plan respectively.

(Scientific/commercial diving have their own SOPs)

The idea of a pony bottle for recreational diving, in my opinion, is a marketing gimmick to dumb down dive planning and also sell more unnecessary equipment to appease the industry's bottom line."

 

[tursiops]

experience with a pony bottle

What do you suggest is the experience needed? Grab the reg and breathe.
You refuse to answer the question you have been asked multiple times about why such a slow ascent rate, and you refuse to allow any strategy other than a CESA if one's reg fails, and you also argue that regs should not fail. You are currently in the Basic Diving forum, not the New Diver forum, but you insist on going back to whether a pony is a good idea for a brand new diver....which is moving the goal posts.
You are not debating -- which you claim to be wanting to do -- you are simply rejecting everything that does not agree with you, and repeating your faulty position over and over. Saying something over and over does not make it more true.
I hope you don't treat your students this way, because they deserve better.

 

[Hartattack]

What do you suggest is the experience needed? Grab the reg and breathe.
You refuse to answer the question you have been asked multiple times about why such a slow ascent rate, and you refuse to allow any strategy other than a CESA if one's reg fails, and you also argue that regs should not fail. You are currently in the Basic Diving forum, not the New Diver forum, but you insist on going back to whether a pony is a good idea for a brand new diver....which is moving the goal posts.
You are not debating -- which you claim to be wanting to do -- you are simply rejecting everything that does not agree with you, and repeating your faulty position over and over. Saying something over and over does not make it more true.
I hope you don't treat your students this way, because they deserve better.

Once again, my question is not answered. Would you recommend a pony bottle to a new diver?

Your red herrings:

Experience needed if recommending a pony bottle to a new diver: Training via instructor or mentor should be included on how to: analyze a tank properly, calculate gas and SCR, gas switch procedures while in trim and buoyancy to mitigate further risk and panic, and include drills on the examples above. This, however, is not telling a new diver to grab a reg and breathe.

Ascent rates have been debated and answered. I add that rate for conservatism; you don't like it, go faster.

Reg failure should be an uncommon problem if a new diver is taught about gear service and cycles. If it is rented or club equipment, that is on those who carry liability insurance.

 

[elan]

I disagree, check out the rest of the thread to see my point of view and examples. (I also dive the Great Lakes as my local spot) The cold water argument is moot, IMHO.

Let me may be clarify one thing. In your original post were you making a poll with an assumption that we are talking about a new OW diver (because the question is in the Basic forum). Or you meant in general for open water , new and experienced.

If you meant the former I would agree, new guys should not be diving something like Arabia at 100ft in 38F water with current which will call for a redundant supply. Descending from the limits of PADI OW even cold water can be done with a free flowing reg, we trained for that.

If it's the latter then I would say at the time one gets a good amount of dives under the belt and ready to progress to harsher environments they should be able to handle a pony.

 

[Ana]

My vote, unnecessary.

A diver should be able to calculate what’s on their back (or side) and set aside a minimum gas (reserve) for an emergency in their dive plan. The added weight, drag, and configuration would hinder a recreational diver more in an emergency than it would help.

All dive plans and ideas are welcome.

Side-note: I do not dive solo, so there could be a reason for those folks, but I’d like to keep this in the normal rec realm of scuba.

Why does it have to be a full Yes or full No?

If you want to eliminate gear, just go freediving. Granted some modern freedivers have as much or more stuff as some scuba divers.

With that said, what is good for one diver makes little sense for another. I solo dive, almost exclusively, and I don't carry any of my pony bottles on my dives. Because my type of dives don't require it. On that note, I don't even need to make a special plan for my dives... Every weekend with good seas I go to the same general location on the same reef line and dive for about an hour in 50 to 80' of mostly warm water.

Some people may think I need a pony, or a plan with contingencies, or both. That's fine, everyone should decide what's their way. And we ALL should also respect people's decisions.

What's wrong with people wanting to use a pony bottle? Why does it everything have to be such a deep philosophical decision?

 

[Wibble]

So you agree, you wouldn't recommend a pony bottle to a new dive, and a direct ascent is the best way to mitigate an OOG emergency when the buddy is not around? Moreover, a new diver with less than adequate training, e.g., advice from Scuba Board, would most likely not have the best reaction time nor experience with a pony bottle in said OOG example?

A new diver would be restricted to 18m/60' and very restricted dive conditions, in tight buddy pairs and almost certainly monitored by a DM or experienced diver. In other words within distance of bolting for the surface.

If your point is that a pony on a new diver would be task overloading, then yes, we can all agree on that.

 

[Hartattack]

Let me may be clarify one thing. In your original post were you making a poll with an assumption that we are talking about a new OW diver (because the question is in the Basic forum). Or you meant in general for open water , new and experienced.

If you meant the former I would agree, new guys should not be diving something like Arabia at 100ft in 38F water with current which will call for a redundant supply. Descending from the limits of PADI OW even cold water can be done with a free flowing reg, we trained for that.

If it's the latter then I would say at the time one gets a good amount of dives under the belt and ready to progress to harsher environments they should be able to handle a pony.

To clarify again:

I have a problem with folks on the scuba board recommending a new diver to use a pony. It is unnecessary and adds complexity to a new diver that is not needed.

When it comes to advanced/working divers, do what you like. However, I still think they are unnecessary because I use MG in my dive planning with my team. Moreover, we usually dive in doubles and practice OOG and valve drills and can do them without much movement in the water column. I'd be happy to show anyone here how we do this.

We reserve "pony bottles" for left sided slung Decompression Bottles or Stages e.g. AL 80 or AL 40. We also calculate this gas into our dive plans. However, this now goes into the Rec 3, Tech 1, Cave 2 levels.

 

[inquis]

IMHO, I don’t think they are necessary at all in any recreational diving application.

Based on this quote, you've obviously gone beyond the newly-certified diver scenario and made a blanket statement across all skill levels during recreational dives. That is why you're getting such push back, but you keep repeating "for a new diver". That case has already been rebutted several times by the fact NEW divers are likely to be closer to their buddies so an air share IS a feasible (and preferred) course of action.

So you agree, you wouldn't recommend a pony bottle to a new dive, and a direct ascent is the best way to mitigate an OOG emergency when the buddy is not around?

I wish you would stop asking such leading questions and putting words into people's mouths. The one-size fits all view you are pitching just doesn't fly with everyone. In SOME cases involving a new diver, I think most pro-pony respondents would say they would recommend a pony. In OTHER cases involving a new diver, they would not make such a recommendation.

a new diver with less than adequate training, e.g., advice from Scuba Board, would most likely not have the best reaction time nor experience with a pony bottle in said OOG example?

With all the instructor credentials you cite, you should know that learning doesn't stop when you get your card in the mail. As has been pointed out, carrying a pony isn't rocket science. If someone dives in conditions where they would feel more comfortable not having to depend on their buddy, it's an easy solution.

Why are you assuming they have "less than adequate" training? Prior to the first time I carried a pony, I practiced deployment on land. That first dive with it, I also practiced deployment in a non-emergency situation. Ever after, I felt confident that tool was available to me. (Yes, I continue to practice on those limited-vis dives where carrying a pony is useful.)