Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[Hartattack]

The other thread was actually about new divers, if you read the second post you will see that I think a pony for a new diver is a bad idea, but that does not make them worthless when they are appropriate.


I think that ascent rates, things that cause issues and equipment choices are actual reasoning. If the chances of a failure were zero why have minimum gas? Can’t we just use all the gas and get out with 10 bar? Save on that pesky second regulator? AS ascent training?

I have said direct ascent to the surface is fine in an OOG emergency. We train differently and that is okay. That still does not bode well for a pony bottle for a new diver. This thread is because folks still think it is a good idea to give a new diver a pony bottle, and I wanted to debate that.

When is a pony bottle the appropriate solution for a new diver?

 

[grf88]

It

Feel free to answer the question:
prove to me why a pony bottle is a better tool than Minimum Gas Calculations and accurate dive planning and skills practice for a new diver

It doesn't matter how much gas is in the tank if the reg stops delivering air for whatever reason and there are a number of possible causes.. At that point you need another source of air and for many they would rather rely on their own resources which may be their pony..

 

[Wibble]

Feel free to answer the question:
prove to me why a pony bottle is a better tool than Minimum Gas Calculations and accurate dive planning and skills practice for a new diver

They. Are. Two. Different. Things.

You plan the dive; dive the plan and something goes wrong. How do you know what went wrong in advance? (Clue, you can't)

If you've a redundant source of gas AND you've practiced using it, that unknown thing going wrong becomes an irritant and not a disaster.


Your point about COMPLETE NOVICES using redundant supplies is probably the moot point as, by definition, they'll be diving in monitored pairs and on simple dives, shallow, etc. Thus the risk of needing the redundancy in the first place is low and the depth is such that an emergency ascent is feasible.

The point most people will concede is that pony bottles (side-slung or mounted on the main cylinder) are for more experienced divers who are diving deeper or around wrecks, etc. For those redundant gas is very simply a good thing as they're diving pretty much beyond the limits of a swim to the surface -- deeper than 30m/100' is a long breath hold with a panic on.

 

[Hartattack]

They. Are. Two. Different. Things.

You plan the dive; dive the plan and something goes wrong. How do you know what went wrong in advance? (Clue, you can't)

If you've a redundant source of gas AND you've practiced using it, that unknown thing going wrong becomes an irritant and not a disaster.


Your point about COMPLETE NOVICES using redundant supplies is probably the moot point as, by definition, they'll be diving in monitored pairs and on simple dives, shallow, etc.

Thus the point most people will concede is that pony bottles (side-slung or mounted on the main cylinder) are for more experienced divers who are diving deeper or around wrecks, etc. For those redundant gas is very simply a good thing.

So a pony bottle in your mind should not be a solution for a new diver?

 

[Hartattack]

It

It doesn't matter how much gas is in the tank if the reg stops delivering air for whatever reason and there are a number of possible causes.. At that point you need another source of air and for many they would rather rely on their own resources which may be their pony..

Why not make a direct ascent if you cannot find your buddy, or, initiate an OOG exchange with your buddy who has MG calculated in to their dive plan? Do new divers learn how to use a pony bottle in class? If not, wouldn't it be best to recommend them follow their training then?

 

[Wibble]

So a pony bottle in your mind should not be a solution for a new diver?

To repeat:

Your point about COMPLETE NOVICES using redundant supplies is probably the moot point as, by definition, they'll be diving in monitored pairs and on simple dives, shallow, etc. Thus the risk of needing the redundancy in the first place is low and the depth is such that an emergency ascent is feasible.

 

[Wibble]

Why not make a direct ascent if you cannot find your buddy, or, initiate an OOG exchange with your buddy who has MG calculated in to their dive plan? Do new divers learn how to use a pony bottle in class? If not, wouldn't it be best to recommend them follow their training then?

Panic will say otherwise.

Fine if they're together; definitely not if they're a ways apart or out of sight. (That's an example of an unplanned event)

 

[boulderjohn]

You didn’t read past this question did you?

IF he didn't, I did. THe problems is that you never answered the question. You think you did, but you didn't. As I will try again below, I asked WHY you need to reserve enough air to do a 9 minute ascent from 80 feet, and the only answer you gave to the question (WHY?) was that Jarrod Jablonski said to do it. I don't see that as an adequate answer.

I often notice you might be wrong and clearly a troll at this point. My argument is Pony Bottles should not be recommended for new divers. That's it. I then give examples for why they are worthless, and all you can find is red herring arguments like equipment choices, ascent rates, free flows. et al., because you cannot debate my actual reasoning.

Right here and now, prove to me why a pony bottle is a better tool than Minimum Gas Calculations and accurate dive planning and skills practice for a new diver.

To repeat....

You are saying that on every blessed recreational dive I do, I should reserve enough gas to do a 9 minute ascent with an OOA buddy from 80 feet, or the equivalent from other depths. You are telling me that I need to do much, much shorter recreational dives than I do now because something that has never happened in my lifetime of diving or in the lifetimes of the diving of anyone I know might happen, and if it does, I have to use that specific ascent strategy.

Given the choice between shortening my dive to accommodate that strategy and wearing a pony, I will take the pony.

I offered a second choice earlier. You can do the same dive plan I am doing now, get the extra bottom time, and still have plenty of gas to get an OOA diver to the surface at a safe ascent rate. That's the choice I use.

So, to repeat the question for the umpteenth time, why (in terms of science) is it necessary to take 9 minutes to the surface from 80 feet, and why is it necessary on such an ascent to do practice decompression stops along the way?

 

[grf88]

Why not make a direct ascent if you cannot find your buddy, or, initiate an OOG exchange with your buddy who has MG calculated in to their dive plan? Do new divers learn how to use a pony bottle in class? If not, wouldn't it be best to recommend them follow their training then?

A CESA should be the last resort. You started this thread so you should try to remember the title which does not mention a new diver. That was another thread. It also depends on what you consider to be a new diver.

 

[Hartattack]

Panic will say otherwise.

Fine if they're together; definitely not if they're a ways apart or out of sight. (That's an example of an unplanned event)

So you agree, you wouldn't recommend a pony bottle to a new dive, and a direct ascent is the best way to mitigate an OOG emergency when the buddy is not around? Moreover, a new diver with less than adequate training, e.g., advice from Scuba Board, would most likely not have the best reaction time nor experience with a pony bottle in said OOG example?