Recreational Pony Bottles, completely unnecessary? Why or why not?

[Hartattack]

Perhaps it would be interesting to outline what minimum training is necessary for a diver to make use of a pony bottle? It doesn't seem all that complicated to me.

We have OW divers who have just been certified the prior day, doing a night dive in an AOW class, and that doesn't seem to cause too much heartburn for a lot of people. Yet, I think a night dive is probably more challenging and intimidating than wearing a pony bottle - for a new diver.

Another great point, John.

I think that reflects my original point that the dive plan should come first to evaluate the conditions and parameters of the dive effectively. Whether night or day, the gas in the cylinder stays the same. Why not plan the dive with your reserves in your back mounted tank as a minimum gas calculation, and then the diver won’t be trying to fuss about with now two tasks; pony bottle management and primary light discipline at night and lower visibility.

 

[Hartattack]

Again I will comment from personal experience from where I dive, which is mainly from boats doing predominantly square profile dives in the region of 20-30m depths.

I know of only five other divers besides myself who carry pony bottles. One of them is my regular buddy and she is also a photographer. However we are both trained in deco diving so our ponies are filled with EAN50 which gives us an option on our deeper dives to plan for deco if necessary (not to be discussed here).

Two of the other divers use EAN32 in their ponies at present and the other two guys who are also a photographers use air.

There are a number of side mount divers who by default are carrying sufficient gas to manage an OOG / OOA situation but I would group them in Advanced and not Basic, likewise for people using backmounted twinsets, where twinsets are generally a starting point for Tech diving. I do recreational dives with twinsets too because I love my twin AL50s

Yeah, those photographers make sense. They are heavily task loaded and working hard. I’d just plan the dive as I normally do with MG and a set of back mounted doubles, but I can see how this could work for them.

 

[johndiver999]

Yeah, those photographers make sense. They are heavily task loaded and working hard. I’d just plan the dive as I normally do with MG and a set of back mounted doubles, but I can see how this could work for them.

why would you go deliberately off topic and talk about double tanks in a thread for basic divers?

Obviously double tanks require the management of three valves, trouble shooting a failure while being unable to see a problem and also require a considerable degree of flexibility? This is far, far different than switching from one second stage to another (and going up) which is all that is required with a back mount pony bottle - except that oral inflation of the BC might be needed in some causes - same as doubles.

 

[Hartattack]

why would you go deliberately off topic and talk about double tanks in a thread for basic divers?

Obviously double tanks require the management of three valves, trouble shooting a failure while being unable to see a problem and also require a considerable degree of flexibility? This is far, far different than switching from one second stage to another (and going up) which is all that is required with a back mount pony bottle - except that oral inflation of the BC might be needed in some causes - same as doubles.

Hi John, I disagree. Back mounted doubles are not difficult, and are not considered advanced or technical. I stated that in the side-note. My point was, if the divers ultimate goal is more gas or a redundant air source they should follow a simple plan.

If in a single tank:

Plan the dive to have a minimum gas requirement in their single tank to get them and their buddy to the surface safely. Once minimum gas is hit by either diver on their SPG, they call the dive and head to the surface.

In Doubles:

The procedure is the same, but now they have more gas to mitigate an emergency and the possibility of a bit longer bottom time within the limits of their MDL/NDL certification, and their SCR.I’d be happy to show what this looks like in a dive plan.

 

[EFX]

I agree that any dive plan should be made solely on the amount of gas in your main tank(s). Whether it's rock bottom, rule of thirds, or the 500 psi (35 bar) rule, all the gas planning should be made on the main gas. I'm excluding travel and deco gas tanks here. The alternate gas source (AS) should only be used for emergencies, i.e. a failure in your primary system. Obviously, solo diving requires an AS, but there are situations when diving with a buddy might require an AS. A wandering or inattentive buddy are a couple examples. These types of buddies can be described as "same ocean, same day" buddies. They are not true buddies and you are essentially diving solo which requires an AS.

 

[johndiver999]

You can not "disagree". The task loading of double tanks with a manifold and three valves is "extra" complexity. LOL. This is silly.

I'm out.

 

[grf88]

This will be my only contribution to thread:
pony bottles
Have at it.

 

[Searcaigh]

Back mounted doubles are not difficult, and are not considered advanced

Here I disagree with you in that they are advanced and not for basic OW divers.

Physically not everyone may have the flexibility to manage valve drills and some drysuits may not offer enough flexibility to do so either.

It's better that the OW only qualified diver uses a larger tank like an AL100 or 15L steel if they are a heavy breather and until they get their buoyancy and trim dialled in correctly to relax more and use less gas.

 

[Hartattack]

You can not "disagree". The task loading of double tanks with a manifold and three valves is "extra" complexity. LOL. This is silly.

I'm out.

I'm afraid I have to disagree that double tanks are for advanced-only divers. Doubles had been the standard for many years before single tanks even came on the market. Moreover, a brand new diver can learn on doubles first without any problems whatsoever. Your argument that they are somehow more complex is relative to how the diver was trained in the first place. With that said, introducing a new diver on a pony bottle or doubles can be debated. My thought process is; that it’s simpler to have your entire system as one unit, e.g., back-mounted doubles and your gas strategy is planned accordingly. This plan adds the gas the diver is looking for while keeping the diver streamlined and in trim and buoyancy.

Folks on SB are pushing new divers towards the need of a pony bottle, and my rebuttal is two-fold, it’s unnecessary because:

1. Divers should know how to plan a dive with a minimum gas requirement for the diver and their buddy to reach the surface safely. This mitigates excessive task loading and drag and also facilitates good dive planning.

Or

2. Add back mounted doubles. The plan is the same for above, but now the diver has more gas to plan according to their NDL/MDL certification.

 

[Hartattack]

This will be my only contribution to thread:
pony bottles
Have at it.

There are 25 pages here, do you have a specific one we should take a look at?