Razor 2.0 or 2.1 or SMS75

[victorzamora]

I mean move the entire bungee down your body (if the shortening of the crotch strap doesn't do that for you). This would mean lowering the d-rings it's clipped off to AS WELL AS where it is on your back.

Thought experiment: Get in diving posture. Clip your bungee to itself instead of to the d-rings, but pass it through the d-rings. This should be a "flat" circuit. It shouldn't have to move backwards or forwards to get around your arms or chest or anything. If your attachment is such that the bungees have to run forwards and backwards to get around things, you've got them positioned wrong. Wrap your bungee around you so that it's just behind your armpits (a few inches behind). This is to make sure the bungee pulls your valves perpendicular to your spine, as viewed from the top. I know that sounds goofy, but if you picture it in your mind it might make sense. If not, let me know.

As for the waist strap position. This DOES matter. You want it riding REALLY low. Look at pictures of the official Razor instructors diving it at the surface. You see how low it is??? That's for a reason. It needs to be where your lower clip is, but it also needs to be lower on your body to bring your whole tank towards your knees.

The leash length is *typically* zero, but you might need to lengthen or shorten depending on your body.

As for the stealth-style bungees. These go in back. When your tanks get SUPER light, you actually need to remove the tanks from the o-rings and move them to d-rings closer to your belly button. I'm not sure what the Stealth homeslices do for walking at the surface, honestly. But I know for a fact the o-rings aren't in front.

 

[Razorista]

If sidemount tank trim didn't matter, Steve Bogaerts wouldn't be charging what he's charging for gear and training,

I think that the main reason Steve charges what he charges is that everyone in the technical diving business or cave diving is charging those rates.
He could even charge the same if he was looking like any monkey diver in the water, just based on his reputation regarding expeditions.

and everyone would be "sidemounting" two stages clipped in front of a BPW with a second backplate sandwiching the wing in place.

Some are doing it that way very successfully and when talking to them they are equally fanatic about 'their way':
Sidemount Session - YouTube
their setup is a bit more sophisticated than your description would indicate, however.

So, the goal with sidemount tank trim is

Even if we will not get along, at least you have gone back to giving good advice now.
In my opinion the Razor can be worn in many ways comfortably and effectively depending on the diver, but you would not believe me anyway.

Riding with your tanks at an angle causes nothing but increased drag and decreased protection.

That is right of course. Angles have to be very bad for practical effects to always be felt, however. Very different in many special situations like behind a scooter, of course.

Plus, you look like a typical weekend-class instructor instead of the experts you should want to emulate.

In my opinion looks don't count. But I will take that as the insult it is clearly meant to be.

I'd shorten the bungee quite a bit,

That one is very true at least, I've gotten much to lazy replacing worn out bungees and it shows.

I also have to move the webbing at the hips up a bit more often since it slips down an inch over time and that way the boltsnap on the tank gets misaligned.

---------- Post added August 12th, 2014 at 10:01 PM ----------

As for the waist strap position. This DOES matter. You want it riding REALLY low.

I would say the same normally, But:

Look at pictures of the official Razor instructors diving it at the surface. You see how low it is???

There has got to be something wrong in some detail there:
Steve Martin again: http://sidemounting.com/Portals/0/L... Side Mount System Fitting - Steve Martin.jpg

http://sidemounting.com/Portals/0/L... Side Mount System Fitting - Steve Martin.JPG

It's at the hips, isn't it? (and he was an official Razor instructor then)

---------- Post added August 13th, 2014 at 12:36 AM ----------

I do not want to annoy you with any of this, honestly.

From my point of view the discrepancy I mentioned above comes from a buttplate-biased way of looking at it.

With a buttplate it is much harder to reclip the spent tanks if the hip D-rings are much higher than the buttplate.
Without a buttplate you get a bit more freedom to configure only for those two per side or a sliding D-ring without having to plan for more complex attachments positions.

It is not surprising to me that a lot of the divers trying harness systems are small and thin women - who could not have worn something like the SMS100, or backmounted doubles perhaps. For those divers the buttplate would often already be to low on the body compared to their waist.

 

[victorzamora]

http://sidemounting.com/Portals/0/L... Side Mount System Fitting - Steve Martin.JPG

It's at the hips, isn't it? (and he was an official Razor instructor then)

Yes, it's at the hips. A BPW harness waist strap crosses over at your belly button. The Razor should be worn at your hips. Congratulations on figuring that out.

From my point of view the discrepancy I mentioned above comes from a buttplate-biased way of looking at it.

Well, you're wrong. I'm certainly not biased due to me "typically" diving a harness with a backplate. I've designed, built, and dived my own rig with no buttplate. Easy as pie when you understand physics and you don't have any preconceived notions that you've mastered everything or that perfection isn't what you should strive for.

 

[djcheburashka]

I mean move the entire bungee down your body (if the shortening of the crotch strap doesn't do that for you). This would mean lowering the d-rings it's clipped off to AS WELL AS where it is on your back.[\quote]

Can you clarify, maybe provide a picture ? On the razor the crotch strap shouldn't affect the sm bungee at all.

Thought experiment: Get in diving posture. Clip your bungee to itself instead of to the d-rings, but pass it through the d-rings. This should be a "flat" circuit. It shouldn't have to move backwards or forwards to get around your arms or chest or anything. If your attachment is such that the bungees have to run forwards and backwards to get around things, you've got them positioned wrong. Wrap your bungee around you so that it's just behind your armpits (a few inches behind). This is to make sure the bungee pulls your valves perpendicular to your spine, as viewed from the top. I know that sounds goofy, but if you picture it in your mind it might make sense. If not, let me know.[\quote]

Ok this is interesting. In the usual pictures of razor configuration the d-rings are above the armpit and at the clavicle. I do, however , see your point. I wonder if I've been misreading the pictures. I may give this a try this week...

I still don't get your point. Imagine the tank and diver stay still and don't move. While the waist strap and cam band (whatever holds the bolt snap to the tank) slide up and down together. How does this relate to the knees?

As for the stealth-style bungees. These go in back. When your tanks get SUPER light, you actually need to remove the tanks from the o-rings and move them to d-rings closer to your belly button. I'm not sure what the Stealth homeslices do for walking at the surface, honestly. But I know for a fact the o-rings aren't in front.

Can you clarify what you're referring to here? On the razor there are two d-rings on each side of the waist band, one to the divers back, for tanks which are negatively buoyant, and one at the front of the hip, for when tanks get positively buoyant. I have replaced the front d-rings (which should not be weight-bearing out of the water) with stealth-style adjustable rubber o/d rings.

When I've asked stealth divers what they do about putting weight on those rubber rings, the answer is if they're entering from a boat they change the rings out for steel because they don't trust the rubber to bear the weight.

In any event, my import of a stealth bit of gear for front d-rings shouldn't have any effect on the proper configuration of rear d rings on a stealth.

(I am continuing to just ignore Razorista)

---------- Post added August 12th, 2014 at 07:25 PM ----------

Eh what's a quote and what's not got all messed up... Let me know if it's illegible

---------- Post added August 12th, 2014 at 07:26 PM ----------

And I meant "rear d-rings on a razor"

---------- Post added August 12th, 2014 at 07:28 PM ----------

From the manual-these d rings are not where they would need to be to make a straight line for a bungee passing under the arm

 

[victorzamora]

Your post was pretty hard to follow, so I'm trying to post to what I can. I won't be in good order, though, so I apologize for that. One thing to note, it should be a forward slash before the word "quote" upon close. So, you start your quote with a [quote ] and you end it with a [/quote ]

So, you're right about the sliding of bolt snap and waist band. What you're missing, I think, is that the bolt snap needs to be as low as possible on the tank. The higher it is on the tank, the worse the angle will be. It's simple geometry. You want to move your waist strap as low as possible so you can lower your bolt snap as low as possible so you can reduce your tank angle as much as possible.

When you shorten your crotch strap, you have to bring your crotch strap down. You can do that two ways: lengthening your spine webbing or lowering your top plate. My assumption was that you'd lower your top plate. Not that that's the best way to do it, it was simply my assumption.

About your picture: You're right....it seems the Razor guys do keep their bungees much farther forward than I seemed to remember seeing. I'm betting that the lower bolt snap pulls backwards against the bungee, keeping the tank more firmly solidified. Regardless of where the bungee gets clipped to, the valve needs to be under your armpits instead of in front of your chest. Like I said, it's simply where I'd start....I'm far from a psychic.

What you do with your o-rings is of little concern to me. I'm just letting you know that the Stealth system has O-rings as the main place to clip your tank to. When your AL80s get REALLY light, you have to move your clips to d-rings even farther forwards. I know most Stealth rigs have a rigid clip-in location farther back for steels to (square ones). I'm wondering if that's where Stealth divers clip in to when at the surface with tanks on. I'll reach out to my contacts and see what they say about it. Regardless of what they do, if your o-rings work for you then good. I was just telling you what they do.

 

[djcheburashka]

So, you're right about the sliding of bolt snap and waist band. What you're missing, I think, is that the bolt snap needs to be as low as possible on the tank. The higher it is on the tank, the worse the angle will be.

Yes, this is exactly what I was saying before. We're on the same page. It's all that Pythagorean theorem, right-triangle stuff

When you shorten your crotch strap, you have to bring your crotch strap down. You can do that two ways: lengthening your spine webbing or lowering your top plate. My assumption was that you'd lower your top plate.

Razor setup takes the opposite approach. The position of the top plate is the starting point, you set it, and it doesn't move and becomes the foundation for everything else. The crotch strap is (and only can be) shortened or lengthened where it meets the top plate.

The top plate really shouldn't need to move for the bungee to go where you suggest. The bungee passes through a loop on the lumbar webbing between that top plate and a triglide. As long as the top plate is above the armpit (usually by a lot) if you adjust the triglide far down then the natural position for the bungee (the point of least tension) will be a straight line from armpit to armpit. I suppose *forcing* the bungee lower than that would require a change, but the razor is definitely not intended to be setup that way.

About your picture: You're right....it seems the Razor guys do keep their bungees much farther forward than I seemed to remember seeing. I'm betting that the lower bolt snap pulls backwards against the bungee, keeping the tank more firmly solidified. Regardless of where the bungee gets clipped to, the valve needs to be under your armpits instead of in front of your chest. Like I said, it's simply where I'd start....I'm far from a psychic.

If it pulls back as you suggest, then the position of the triglide on the lumbar strap that retains the sidemount bungee may be crucial. I think it's the opposite direction though-the bungee pushes back until the bolt snap is under tension with the tank as far to the rear as possible. It seems to me that the valve handle ends up in the armpit, with the valve itself extending under the shoulder. If so, then the tank will necessarily extend an inch or so below the divers body. And then I'm not sure where to position the triglide so the tension on the bungee is toward the divers feet.

This is, by the way, an example of a major issue with the razor: it *can* be configured to be perfect! indeed more perfect than other rigs. But the configuration paradigm is different than any other rig, there are no directions anywhere, and no-one who isn't named Steve knows how to do it!

I've had enough diving and enough technical training that, with clear written directions, I should be able to get new gear correctly configured, and shouldn't need either a week in Mexico or 8 hours of online video for $500. (Really Steve M.? Are you for serious?)

I'm going to try, next time I dive, with the d rings at the clavicle and the triglide far enough down in back for the bungee to find its own position. I put small d-rings on my rig at the armpit level for stages. If I get the opportunity, I may try to take pictures with the tank clipped in at each position.

I'm really curious whether you have additional views about this, thinking about it given where the chest d-rings are.

What you do with your o-rings is of little concern to me. I'm just letting you know that the Stealth system has O-rings as the main place to clip your tank to. When your AL80s get REALLY light, you have to move your clips to d-rings even farther forwards.

I disagree with you here. The tank is either rear-positive or it's not. If it's rear positive, then there's a position at which it will be horizontal--as long as the front of the tank is retained the same way, it doesn't matter if the rear is 1 or 10 lbs positive, it will still be in the same place. It can't be pulled higher than the position of that d-ring + the length of the leash. I go to the front d rings at around 2500-2000 psi.

The stealth is really a hybrid system. They took a lot of the razor concept, funked around with it so it didn't look like too much of an obvious clone, then tried to add every conceivable feature from other sidemount rigs, hence the butt-plate. That's one of the things I don't like about it. Another is that the whole thing is held together by bungees, and I think we're just counting the days until we hear of the major injury caused when a bungee on someone's stealth snapped and they, their wing, and their weights went of shooting in different directions.

I really don't like butt-plates. I agree they simplify trimming out heavy steel tanks, for the reason we discussed above-the further back the connection point is, the smaller the angle. But it's possible to trim out heavy steels with the razor, it's just tricky. I'm also opposed to diving sm with heavy steels anyway. One of the advantages of the razor is I can no-mount, unclipping the rear and holding the tanks in front.

In that position I can fit through holes that... Well, let's say I've gotten myself into places that people thought they'd rendered permanently inaccessible.

Anyway, I can no-mount easily with a pair of al80s. If I'm diving two lp85s with two al40s as stages... I can do that, but it's at the limit of my capabilities. With heavier steel tanks, there may be people who can handle them no-mount, but I'm not one of them. The balance of trim, with the tanks held out in front of me, and the positively buoyant rear of the stages in back, it just doesn't work. With those heavy steel tanks it's really me that's attached to the tanks, not the tanks attached to me.

 

[Sidemount_Stu]

One of the advantages of the razor is I can no-mount, unclipping the rear and holding the tanks in front.

How is that an "advantage of the razor?". Your statement implies it's something unique to the razor when in fact just about any SM harness is capable of this providing the diver is neutrally weighted without tanks and balanced properly. It's a function of correct setup not of the Harness system!

 

[djcheburashka]

Sort of--but getting that rigged and working in a Hollis-type hybrid system is a bigger pain then getting tanks trimmed out in the razor, and at the end of it the hybrid system is off-balance, the profile isn't slim, and there's lots of loose junk hanging here or there.

 

[Sidemount_Stu]

at the end of it the hybrid system is off-balance, the profile isn't slim, and there's lots of loose junk hanging here or there.

I agree profiles would be very different, but the action of bringing cylinders around in front Is just as straight forward with any system, and therefore doesn't need to be a consideration when purchasing. The rig is chosen for many reasons, the ability to bring cylinders around, not being one of them, as this isn't a feature of the Harness itself.

Just my 2p, I'll leave you and Victor to your discussion. [emoji3]

 

[victorzamora]

Yes, this is exactly what I was saying before. We're on the same page. It's all that Pythagorean theorem, right-triangle stuff

Cool cool.

Razor setup takes the opposite approach. The position of the top plate is the starting point, you set it, and it doesn't move and becomes the foundation for everything else. The crotch strap is (and only can be) shortened or lengthened where it meets the top plate.

The top plate really shouldn't need to move for the bungee to go where you suggest. The bungee passes through a loop on the lumbar webbing between that top plate and a triglide. As long as the top plate is above the armpit (usually by a lot) if you adjust the triglide far down then the natural position for the bungee (the point of least tension) will be a straight line from armpit to armpit. I suppose *forcing* the bungee lower than that would require a change, but the razor is definitely not intended to be setup that way.

I understand what you're saying, and I was wrong in my assumption. However, lowering the bungee a little bit might still be a starting point for me. Like I said, it's where I'd start. I'd need some time with you in a pool to get it figured out perfectly.....although I can't make it perfect from here, I know what would help.

If it pulls back as you suggest, then the position of the triglide on the lumbar strap that retains the sidemount bungee may be crucial. I think it's the opposite direction though-the bungee pushes back until the bolt snap is under tension with the tank as far to the rear as possible. It seems to me that the valve handle ends up in the armpit, with the valve itself extending under the shoulder. If so, then the tank will necessarily extend an inch or so below the divers body. And then I'm not sure where to position the triglide so the tension on the bungee is toward the divers feet.

Again, what I suggested was a starting point. Maybe lowering the attachment point makes it so you don't need to move the bungee....I'm not sure.

This is, by the way, an example of a major issue with the razor: it *can* be configured to be perfect! indeed more perfect than other rigs. But the configuration paradigm is different than any other rig, there are no directions anywhere, and no-one who isn't named Steve knows how to do it!

I've had enough diving and enough technical training that, with clear written directions, I should be able to get new gear correctly configured, and shouldn't need either a week in Mexico or 8 hours of online video for $500. (Really Steve M.? Are you for serious?)

Now, I wouldn't say "more perfect than all other rigs" but "more perfect than SOME other rigs" would work fine with me. Adjusting a Razor is an absolute pain in the butt, there's no doubt about it......and the training is absolutely fantastic, and worth the money to some people. For others, not so much. I believe where the price of this training is concerned, it's one of those situations where they know what to hit with the hammer.

I'm going to try, next time I dive, with the d rings at the clavicle and the triglide far enough down in back for the bungee to find its own position. I put small d-rings on my rig at the armpit level for stages. If I get the opportunity, I may try to take pictures with the tank clipped in at each position.

I'm really curious whether you have additional views about this, thinking about it given where the chest d-rings are.

The only thing I'm afraid of here is that the Razor kind of operates on all this weird tension being strung between different areas. I'd just be afraid of releasing any tension on the lumbar webbing and bungee connection for fear of ugly tank trim. Also, as short as your leashes are, I've begun to think that they're the biggest key to getting your tanks where they need to be.

I disagree with you here. The tank is either rear-positive or it's not. If it's rear positive, then there's a position at which it will be horizontal--as long as the front of the tank is retained the same way, it doesn't matter if the rear is 1 or 10 lbs positive, it will still be in the same place. It can't be pulled higher than the position of that d-ring + the length of the leash. I go to the front d rings at around 2500-2000 psi.

Different buoyancies will have a different effect on the system. A slightly positive tail will pull slightly, but end up floating kinda near even. A VERY positive tail will try hanging straight up. Especially with your o-ring configuration, that o-ring will start to become deformed and has the potential to slide at very negative and very positive values. Buoyancy isn't binary, and its effects aren't, either. Razor divers say it's "close enough" to binary, Stealth divers say it's far enough from binary to merit a sliding d-ring system.

The stealth is really a hybrid system. They took a lot of the razor concept, funked around with it so it didn't look like too much of an obvious clone, then tried to add every conceivable feature from other sidemount rigs, hence the butt-plate. That's one of the things I don't like about it. Another is that the whole thing is held together by bungees, and I think we're just counting the days until we hear of the major injury caused when a bungee on someone's stealth snapped and they, their wing, and their weights went of shooting in different directions.

Not everything on the Stealth is held together by bungees, and what is held together by bungees is redundant. I think if that's what you're waiting for, you had better not hold your breath. Also, the vast majority of Stealth divers do not dive with a buttplate. It's designed for diving without a buttplate.

I really don't like butt-plates. I agree they simplify trimming out heavy steel tanks, for the reason we discussed above-the further back the connection point is, the smaller the angle. But it's possible to trim out heavy steels with the razor, it's just tricky. I'm also opposed to diving sm with heavy steels anyway. One of the advantages of the razor is I can no-mount, unclipping the rear and holding the tanks in front.

In that position I can fit through holes that... Well, let's say I've gotten myself into places that people thought they'd rendered permanently inaccessible.

Anyway, I can no-mount easily with a pair of al80s. If I'm diving two lp85s with two al40s as stages... I can do that, but it's at the limit of my capabilities. With heavier steel tanks, there may be people who can handle them no-mount, but I'm not one of them. The balance of trim, with the tanks held out in front of me, and the positively buoyant rear of the stages in back, it just doesn't work. With those heavy steel tanks it's really me that's attached to the tanks, not the tanks attached to me.

There ARE plenty of people that can no-mount heavy steels. I'm one of them. It's harder to balance them in OW when showing off for goofy videos, as is done in Razor/Stealth videos all the time for no reason. Especially in caves, there's no need to ever swim tanks-forward for an extended period without impacting the bottom. And sidemount isn't suited for wreck penetration. Either way, too much SERIOUS cave exploration has occurred in an SMS100 with big, heavy steels for me to take that seriously. Also, an AL40 stage bottle is completely useless to me. I'm diving 300ft3 of gas in my mains in my mains, equivalent to two LP85s and two AL40s. I still have very little trouble no-mounting. I have very little use for no-mounting, though.....so take that for what it's worth.

---------- Post added August 13th, 2014 at 08:03 AM ----------

Sort of--but getting that rigged and working in a Hollis-type hybrid system is a bigger pain then getting tanks trimmed out in the razor, and at the end of it the hybrid system is off-balance, the profile isn't slim, and there's lots of loose junk hanging here or there.

Literally NONE of that is true. Period. The profile of my SMS100 is lower than most diving a Razor due to that crazy beachball crap.