Razor 2.0 or 2.1 or SMS75

[djcheburashka]

The profile on the SMS is a) wider, b) thicker until the wing is very very inflated ( I'm not sure the beach ball is ever thicker than the SMS), c) more rigid along the divers body, and d) covered in junk and bits sticking out in weird unnecessary places.

You say sm is unsuitable for wreck and no-mounting is very brief without missing the bottom, so fine with heavy steels. I say I do wreck penetration with sm very effectively, and I can keep al80s in front of my without missing the bottom indefinitely or lp85s for, I don't know, 25 minutes of travel? Even I could do heavy steels just to get through a hatchway or something. This is what I mean about advantages.

Has there *really* been serious cave exploration in an sms100? I find that a bit hard to swallow... The rigs only existed for a short time, Hollis gear is generally viewed as pretty but not for serious diving, and the sms100 is supposed to be a "single rig for people who don't want to pay for separate bm and sm setups," not a dedicated sm rig. The thing violates just soooo many of the rules about gear configuration established by cave divers over the years -- excess d rings, dangling overlong inflator hose, wing has to be held in shape by bungees that are exposed to abrasion and also restrict gas flow within the bladder, fastex clips, quick-links with metal-on-metal connections, excess positively buoyant material purportedly for comfort...

Maybe if they're paid to use the gear, but it's hard for me to picture serious exploration-level divers selecting a rig designed and marketed for the opposite market.

---------- Post added August 13th, 2014 at 09:55 AM ----------

A slightly positive tail will pull slightly, but end up floating kinda near even. A VERY positive tail will try hanging straight up. Especially with your o-ring configuration, that o-ring will start to become deformed and has the potential to slide at very negative and very positive values. Buoyancy isn't binary, and its effects aren't, either. Razor divers say it's "close enough" to binary, Stealth divers say it's far enough from binary to merit a sliding d-ring system.

This just isn't true... The buoyancy shift on an al80 is from 1.5 negative to 3.5 positive. It's an order of magnitude from putting stress on the d-ring (even a rubber one) or pushing the gear out of shape--a tank on a .25" leash that's 1lb positive is going to be in exactly the same place at 3.5 lbs positive.

As for stealth divers... it seems to me they use it because they can't figure out the right place for their d-rings. It's a patch on a skill problem. And even then they can't use the rubber rings for boat entry and have to put metal on or use the butt plate.

 

[shoredivr]

And sidemount isn't suited for wreck penetration.

There are those who would disagree, starting here:
Sidemount Technical Wreck | Andy Davis Technical Diving Philippines

 

[MSargeant]

Whenever i've been pootling along inside a wreck, definitely glad I was in sidemount.

 

[victorzamora]

Whenever i've been pootling along inside a wreck, definitely glad I was in sidemount.

On the topic of wrecks: There are a ton of wrecks where sidemount is fine on. And those aren't the ones I'm talking about. I was talking about a lot of the wrecks you'd want to swing tanks forward for. A lot of divers (Steve Martin and Andy Davis included) have videos of them exiting super tiny spaces and having tanks forward. However, that's not how you swim through a wreck for extended periods for anything other than showing off. REAL wreck penetration doesn't involve 45 minutes of no-mount. If it would require 45 minutes of no-mount due to width, backmount doubles might be the better option. If it's for one or two restrictions, that's different.....but diving big steels through that is not much different than alus.

As far as bungees and danglies and excessive doo-dads, the SMS100 (properly modified), SMS75, Halcyon Contour, and Hog SM are all pretty good about it. I dive an SMS100 and feel like I have a very clean setup. And DJ, FL caves have been pushed MUCH harder in sidemount than in backmount in recent years, and the big sidemount rigs have had FAR more success in FL than Razors. Nomads are just as big, if not bigger, and they've had huge success LONG before the Razor became the fashionable rig to dive, even in places that are now considered Razor territory.

Whether you believe it or not, the SMS100 is a very good, well put-together rig that dives incredibly well after some mods have been finished. The other three I mentioned (SMS75, Halcyon, and Hog) are all great right out of the box. Also, the material isn't positive. The rig is almost neutral, sinking slightly. As for the fastex, there's nothing serious that happens if they fail....and they're very heavy duty. There are no metal-to-metal connections attaching anything on that rig, period. The bungees are all protected from abrasion and don't get damaged. I don't know what experiences you've had with a properly-dived SMS100, but they're absolutely great rigs. The SMS75, Halcyon, and Hog just fixed what took mods on the SMS100 to get right.

 

[MSargeant]

The no mount thing wasn't the reason I was glad to be in SM, it was everything that could potentially FUBAR on me, being within reach, and within sight (copy n paste the cave argument here)

 

[mddolson]

Originally Posted by victorzamora

And sidemount isn't suited for wreck penetration.

There are those who would disagree, starting here:
Sidemount Technical Wreck | Andy Davis Technical Diving Philippines

I'm in that group. I am a sidemount convert, a newb really with less than 2 years sidemount diving.
I am however a wreck penetration verteran with over 500 deep wreck dives in the great lakes, in cold waters (40°F) and depths to 150 feet.
I have made several dives to my favourite wreck in my new (sidemount) configuration.
I can a test that sidemount is well suited for wreck penetration.

My 2 cents.

Mike D

 

[victorzamora]

I know, I amended my statement. SOME wrecks aren't sidemount-friendly due to being super narrow. Regardless, a wreck dive that required no-mount diving for an extended period does not sound fun to me.....and one that required you to have your tanks in front of you for a significant timespan is one that might be better suited in bm doubles. Many/most wrecks are GREAT in SM. BETTER in SM. My point is that there's no *need* to have your tanks swung in front of you for a seriously extended period of time with nothing above or below you that I can think of. That was my only point. My phrasing was, however, very incorrect.

 

[djcheburashka]

All wrecks are sidemount friendly if you're in 80s a 45 min no mount is a bad idea agreed, but 10 min isn't unusual.

I believe lots of no fla cave stuff is happening with the Nomad. That's Dive Rite county!

It's much harder for me to believe that about Hollis gear, because it just violates too many cave diving rules. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that the claim is extraordinary to me so I ask if you know of examples.

Victor's statement was clearly just ill-phrased and he's amended it so hopefully we can return to the topic of how to get the razor properly configured.

 

[Razorista]

Getting distracted with 'unlucky' statements can happen to anyone

Interesting development.

Personally I do not consider sidemount to be less useful than backmount anywhere, but I have not seen everything, so perhaps I am mistaken.

I also think that it does not matter that much if you are using an SMS100, 75, 50, Razor or Stealth, homemade sandwich backplate system (or whatever, with exceptions) to get good results. It's just a matter of dedication to the task and time (and some careful mods perhaps).

On the other hand some systems today fit the current state of sidemount training better then most and enable the user to specialize on certain training options.
The systems mentioned in the original questions are all perfect examples of that (there are several others not mentioned).

It also shows in this thread that standardization still has to go a long way.
There are several known ways of getting there, but they look conflicting (most aren't, in my opinion) and are often promoted as the only way of doing it (which seems to be the opposite of what people find most attractive about sidemounting in the first place - freedom).

In my opinion you cannot compare, or experience any system to it's full potential, before you have used it as the creator or (an experienced user and instructor) intended.
An SMS75 has to be used as Edd recommends, a Contour has to be set up the GUE way, an SMS100 the way Lamar likes it (or modified Edd's way, or Steve Martin's, or another experienced instructors/users way - it is a bit special), a Razor the Bogaerthian way, and a Stealth perhaps according to Patrick (but it seems to work quite well setup like a Razor 2 too), to compare possibilities.
Of course everyone can diverge as much as he or she likes but if done to early it is possible to miss the important points in using a system (if you can really find an experienced instructor to help along, you might be able start from his level of mods).


Leaving that aside however there still are some physical differences one has to consider.
Of course an SMS75 is more bulky than a Razor (or any harness system), not because of some beachball-effect (legend?), but because it is clearly more than thrice as much material on the divers body.
On a large diver this might not mater, on other divers (or dives) it might be very relevant.
On the other hand it is a lot less bulky than the SMS100 is without modifications (or even with mods).

The SMS series is (obviously) skillfully optimized for using heavy tanks with a lot of air remaining in them at the end of the dive.
It also has few disadvantages apart from bulk (there are some though) with neutral tanks if they are not emptied to more than a third remaining and can be made to work even longer for both types with hip D-Rings added or sliding ones used.


The Razor is a totally different animal in that regard.
It is not optimized for any tank, it is optimized for a certain type of valve!

It can be used with any tank, as long as the setup fits the valve model and the diver is able to handle the bulk and weight of the tanks physically.

It is very flexible in every other way, but using ill-fitting valves can be very tricky and negate the way the bungee system is supposed to work (and might require extensive modifications and compromises to even get that far).
The Razor can be made to work with (almost) any type of tank in any state, sometimes with problems, but always with problems that can be fixed with a bit of work.

But using those valves the Razor works without a buttplate, with a primitive bungee system and only one or two D-rings on the hip - minimalism at the peak of current knowledge.

btw: Stealth style loop bungees are even more depended on using 'the right' valves.
_______________________________

@victorzamora
'buttplate-centric' thinking was not meant as an insult (I am really trying to avoid being insulting).
I described why I think it is normal to think that lowering the hip D-rings will help with tank trim.
With a buttplate this always helps someway, without it it can help too, but as long as the diver isn't to short for his tanks (normally not the case with available types), the same effect can be achieved by moving the steal-clamp or cam band up to an ideal position.
That might require also shortening or modifying the bungee, etc...

I just tried to say without being insulting it may more complex than that sounded when considering very different systems.

 

[djcheburashka]

I'm realizing more and more as we go through this that the directions I followed when I setup my Razor (i.e., the manual and some searches of bulletin boards) were really inadequate. Steve Martin now has videos, 6 hrs for $500 or so. (Are you kidding?!?)

Does anyone know of another resource?