Razor 2.0 or 2.1 or SMS75

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DJ, I think you're reading Steve Martin's site wrong. The videos are 100 Euros or 130 Euros if you want all five. That's total cost. But, as with all things, if you don't think that they will be worth it, don't buy them. His main focus and diving rig is the Stealth though. He goes through how to properly set it up. More or less the same things that Patrick and the guys at Protec will go over with you.

Razorista, I've used the Stealth with all types of valves. No issues. You strike me as an "internet diver". You seem to just recite what you find on the internet and on Youtube rather than speaking from personal experience. I think the others have shown "the emperor has no clothes". You're doing what Bogaerts refers to in his interviews as "the partially sighted leading the blind."

Victor, I dive my Stealth with what I consider heavy steels. And even a stage...without using the buttplate. If we're comparing systems by how much cave they've explored, then the Hollis is going to lose. The Nomad would win. I'm pretty sure even Bogaerts was wearing a Nomad when he did his big connections. The SMS100 is modified to be like the Armadillo. The SMS75 is designed to be like the Armadillo. The Hog is an offshoot of that. Same with the Contour. So why not just get an Armadillo? The most recently opened caves in Mexico (Doggi, Caterpillar, Bobcat, Xulo, Nahoch Pek) have had their exploration done by people wearing the Stealth. There's a lot of line that's been laid. And they're always pushing new systems, and will be pushing a huge new one this fall.

The wing of the Razor is designed that way on purpose. The highest point of the wing is in the lower back. In the water, that's the first place air will go, the lower back. Same with the Stealth. All other systems put air to the shoulders first before migrating down to the back. So you either put trim weights up by your shoulders or dive overweighted so that you can add more air to your wing to force some down to the lower back.

I don't believe that the Hollis comes with directions for setting it up, or how to modify it so that it can work correctly or at least better. The HOG didn't come with directions (we just brought 2 rigs in). My back mount twins didn't come with instructions either. Perhaps we have high expectations for the Razor?
 
Thanks for the info on Steve Martin's videos. Since they don't even focus on the razor, the probability of my purchasing them has now declined from 0.1% to 0.0001%.

---------- Post added August 13th, 2014 at 11:22 PM ----------

Oh-and while it's true that backmount twins don't need directions, all backplate-and-wing systems get setup the same way, and they've been around for decades. The razor is a unique system, that purports to be better-designed. In that case, setting it up should either be intuitive, or there should be a clear instruction how to do it without spending an extra thousand or two.

Indeed, when I've purchased backplate-and-wing gear that deviated from the norms, it was invariably easy to find an explanation of the deviation.
 
It's no different from any other piece of sports equipment. You could spend a ton of cash on the newest clubs for golf. They don't come with directions. And you could spend a lifetime hacking up the munis and having a ton of fun. But if you want to learn how to use them like a pro, you pay to take the lessons. Heck, how many coaches has Tiger gone through?
 
Not the same thing.

There are a lot of kinds of baseball bat but they all get used the same way; if you can swing one, then after a few practice swings you can swing any.

There are a lot of kinds of golf club. They all get used the same way. If one is designed so you're supposed to put the club more under the ball, it'll say so.

There are a lot of kinds of backplate and wing. They all get used the same way...

The razor, on the other hand, is entirely unique. It isn't used like any other sidemount system.

Right now we're in a phase of diving where people are nuts for c cards. 5 levels of training for this, plus four for that, plus 3 for doing them both together.

Do we really think the explosion in training classes is different than Mares offering fins in 12 different color combinations?

Training someone to sidemount dive is not the same thing as learning how to setup ones gear. I learned to drive, and each time I get a new car I learn what the special buttons on that car do. But I don't have to go back to drivers ed for the lesson!

This idea that people should have to take a training class to setup their gear is exclusive to diving. It's not present in any other sport. And it's not understandable except as a way to sell training.
 
Sidemount, on the other hand, is entirely unique. It isn't used like any other diving system.

FTFY.

I believe that sidemount is very much like a set of clubs. If you teach me how to dive in sidemount properly, and give me the theory and the physics and the goals, and you get me set up on one, I can adjust my swing to do well with any rig. I haven't taken a sidmeount class, but have taken a lot of training in SM from one of the well-respected SM guys. Nothing from him or his group comes without a good amount of SM theory. I've never adjusted a Razor before, but through my experience in sidemount, I am confident I could get it working right. I may not give you the same swing Steve Bogaerts swings with, but you would have proper tank trim and setup by the time we left the pool.

Proper training isn't just about the instructor, either. Proper training is teamwork between the instructor and the student. The instructor has to be willing to change his methods to suit the student's learning style, and must explain the "Whys" and "Hows" properly, accurately, and succinctly. The student has to be willing to absorb all knowledge the instructor has to offer, but owes no duty to parrot the instructor blindly. If the student has a better way, it should be discussed. Often, the Instructor has considered it and knows the reasons why he/she does not do it that way.

gearhound, I didn't mean SMS100 over the Nomad. It's too new to the game to have the quantity of exploration that the Nomad has. But, for the purposes of the discussion, the Nomad is equivalent to the Hollis. Actually, it's worse in my opinion, because it's bigger, bulkier, and has more going on with it. The statement was made that no real exploration was being done with an SMS100 because it's too big and bulky. Nomads are at least as big and at least as bulky, and they did an absolute boat load of exploration. To this day, people are pushing crazy tight restrictions all over Florida in Nomads and SMS100s. I know for a fact that Vortex, Madison, JB, Hole in the Wall, Twin Cave, Ginnie, and Peacock are all still getting pushed in the "big" SM rigs, including the Hollis rigs (SMS100 and SMS75) and Nomads. It's just a fact.....they're good at what they do, and what they do is big steel tanks. Where they're failing is now done on CCR. A lot of the CCR diving is now in SM in Nomads and SMS100s. Razor/Stealth type rigs are predominantly being used to push warm, shallow caves. It's what they do, it's what they're good at.

You mention you dive what you consider to be heavy steels. Do you mind me asking which ones? One note, however, is that the Stealth is much better suited to steels than the Razor. Razors tend to beachball VERY badly when lifting higher values.

You also mentioned the SMS100 is being modified to be like a Dillo. I think that's not necessarily the case. There are similarities, but I certainly like my SMS100 far better than I like the Armadillo rigs (they're not bad, I just like mine better). It's a bunch of minor things, but they're still things I took into consideration when making my decision on what to dive.
 
Sorry Vic, didn't mean it to sound like a rant (and I'm probably going to go into another one). And I usually respect everything you have to say because I believe you're one of the logical and better researched posters on these forums. But I do laugh a bit every time a fanboy of the SMS100 comes out and says you need to buy the SMS100 and get the 'Edd" mods. Buy something new...but you have to spend more to get it modified to work properly (which is different from training). Let's copy the design of the Oxycheq Recon, which hardly anybody bought or even talks about, and say it's the greatest sidemount rig that we put a lot of thought into. Route the shoulder straps down to the waist...just like the Armadillo. Put on old school bungees...just like the Armadillo. Reroute your inflator...just like the Armadillo. That's why I ask "why not just get the Armadillo?" It's more streamlined along the back. It's built like a tank. It doesn't change the angle of your tanks when you add air to it. It comes with an instructions. And you don't have to modify it to work properly.

I used the term "what I consider to be heavy steels" because I know how you "good old boys" consider diving anything less than cave filled 108s to be for weenies. But the majority of the divers in the world don't dive that way. To answer your question for the pissing match to follow, I dive with Faber 120s, Faber 95s and Worthington 100s. I also have a set of 72s, but I consider those lightweight. I had a diver out this weekend with Worthington 130s. We didn't get the time to trim out properly, but he had enough lift.

I have to dive in glacier fed lakes at altitude, so I would consider Florida caves to be warm water. I took my cave courses there in a 5mm. I would very much prefer to be in the caves you dive in or Mexico, but I'll take what I can get. I view all the diving I do as training for when I do get to go cave diving. Things are so much easier in a warm water cave after you've been diving in cold water and low viz. The students I take along to take cave courses never seem to have issues with the lights out or silt out drills. They're already used to not seeing anything.

The difference between the Nomad type systems with heavy steels and the Razor type systems with al80s is like the difference between dump trucks and sports cars. You can haul more with the dump truck, but you're definitely more nimble and agile in the sports car. They each have their purpose. Perhaps I'm going through a midlife crisis, but I really prefer the sexy sports car.

People are pushing crazy tight restrictions in Mexico too. If you add the word "fragile" into that statement then I definitely prefer the agility of the Stealth.
 
Yeah, but if what you have is cold water, that's what you dive :)
 
Sorry Vic, didn't mean it to sound like a rant (and I'm probably going to go into another one). And I usually respect everything you have to say because I believe you're one of the logical and better researched posters on these forums. But I do laugh a bit every time a fanboy of the SMS100 comes out and says you need to buy the SMS100 and get the 'Edd" mods. Buy something new...but you have to spend more to get it modified to work properly (which is different from training). Let's copy the design of the Oxycheq Recon, which hardly anybody bought or even talks about, and say it's the greatest sidemount rig that we put a lot of thought into. Route the shoulder straps down to the waist...just like the Armadillo. Put on old school bungees...just like the Armadillo. Reroute your inflator...just like the Armadillo. That's why I ask "why not just get the Armadillo?" It's more streamlined along the back. It's built like a tank. It doesn't change the angle of your tanks when you add air to it. It comes with an instructions. And you don't have to modify it to work properly.
I've used an Armadillo. It's simply not as polished as an Edd-modded SMS100. It doesn't dive as well. The SMS75 requires no such mods. Also, I purchased my Edd-modded SMS100 for quite noticeably less than a Stealth or Razor costs. I know you weren't referencing cost, but it's a part. Plus, the Edd-mods are really just a small series of tweaks to get a mediocre system to really shine.

I used the term "what I consider to be heavy steels" because I know how you "good old boys" consider diving anything less than cave filled 108s to be for weenies. But the majority of the divers in the world don't dive that way. To answer your question for the pissing match to follow, I dive with Faber 120s, Faber 95s and Worthington 100s. I also have a set of 72s, but I consider those lightweight. I had a diver out this weekend with Worthington 130s. We didn't get the time to trim out properly, but he had enough lift.
First of all, I'm not a "good old boy." I've been cave diving for just shy of two years, and I'm only 24 years old. So no basis there. Secondly, I only own Worthington 100s.....and Edd teaches against 8" diameter tanks due to increased drag. I don't mind them, but I certainly don't care who dives what. Different tanks have their uses. The caves I dive are typically larger caves, and are relatively deep. I enjoy the extra volume that an HP100 or cave-filled LP108 gives me over an AL80. When I was in Mx, I was quite content to dive those little AL80s. A lot of my dives also include an AL80. There's nothing wrong with them, my point was simply that the Razor is FAR from optimized for big, heavy tanks and especially overweighted divers (as I am frequently with steel tanks and zero lead). I've also said multiple times that the Stealth does a significantly better job than the Razor when it comes to big steel tanks.

As for Worthington HP130s, I'd legitimately love to see a picture of that. Not to be a jerk, but out of honest curiosity. My buddy dives Faber 130s in a Razor, but has done some VERY major mods (practically unrecognizable as a Razor now) to get it diving well.

As for "pissing match," I think you're just being purposefully inflammatory and there's really no need for that.

The difference between the Nomad type systems with heavy steels and the Razor type systems with al80s is like the difference between dump trucks and sports cars. You can haul more with the dump truck, but you're definitely more nimble and agile in the sports car. They each have their purpose. Perhaps I'm going through a midlife crisis, but I really prefer the sexy sports car.

People are pushing crazy tight restrictions in Mexico too. If you add the word "fragile" into that statement then I definitely prefer the agility of the Stealth.

To be fair, one of the big reasons people are pushing with the Stealth in Mexico is for political reasons. Several of the old Razor instructors are now Stealth instructors, and used to teach SM on bigger harnesses like the Nomad or 'Dillo. The main reason they've gone that way is for political reasons, to the point where I know of at least one has now switched to GUE to avoid some of those politics.

Also, I'm certainly NOT saying that exploration dives aren't being done on the Stealth.......I'm simply stating that serious exploration IS being done on the SMS100 or Nomad or similar systems, and has been being done for hundreds of thousands of feet with good success. If it's good enough for them, it's good enough for me. I'd switch to the Stealth (or at least the Stealth wing) if I saw definitive proof that it can handle big steels (Worthington HP100s, HP130s, LP108s all count) at nearly the same level my SMS100 can. Until then, I'll be plenty happy with my current setup.
 
Victor, if I start a separate thread on razor config will you participate? Mods, can you move those posts without moving razoristas?
 
@gearhound
While you seem to understand your gear better than most you do not understand the direction this thread has been and is going. :shakehead:
I did not have the time to spare to stay active writing, but it is still fun to read.:rofl3:
 
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