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Razor 2.0 or 2.1 or SMS75

Discussion in 'Sidemount Diving' started by ScubaShaneVB, Jul 20, 2014.

  1. djcheburashka

    djcheburashka Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: San Francisco, CA
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    Ok well, when a diver with a reputation decides to get into the manufacturing/marketing biz, "designs" a rig (I doubt they ever really do much of the actual designing), and then uses it on future dives---

    I take that as advertising a product for sale. Not an endorsement that the community had adopted or accepted the product.

    A good enough diver can dive in just about any rig. Someone using a particular rig because they're paid to do so is nothing more than painting a logo on a nascar.

    With that---is there any other example of the SMS or any Hollis product used for serious sidemount diving?

    I'm sorry, but until convinced otherwise I just don't see it in the same category as the others.
     
  2. mk706

    mk706 Solo Diver

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    Dj, apparently you are unfamiliar with Edd and his guys in Marianna. Recommend reading up, or make the trip.
     
  3. Razorista

    Razorista Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Germany
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    What about names like Edd Sorenson, Steve Martin, or Tom Steiner?? - all at least are said do have done some serious sidemounting in that system.

    I remember at least one name of someone who went much to far in the Hollis SMS100 and was already quite famous before.
    So even though I am no cave diver and favor a different system I find this statement to be infuriating to say the least.

    That is correct - but also so incredibly obvious it did not necessarily need to be repeated again.

    While some modern systems have reportedly been used for serious exploration level diving the older system are still used everywhere so it seems obviously impossible for the modern systems to catch up in a single year or two.

    From what I have heard Steve Bogaerts had been using the Razor himself for years before releasing the building instructions, than the Razor 1 the Razor 2 and now the 2.1 update (most elements of which I have been diving myself for over a year already before the release (and I do not have special access in any way)).
    In that time at least two of his biggest expeditions have become official. Both he and his teams should have been using Razors exclusively at that time.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2014
  4. djcheburashka

    djcheburashka Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: San Francisco, CA
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    @mk706 -- but, they're getting paid to use the SMS100. They have a financial interest in it, or at least the head of their group does. This is what I said in my post -- dives by people getting paid to use particular gear, do not count when we're asking whether that gear has proven itself to the community.

    @razorista -- how long do we have to keep ignoring you before you stop?
     
  5. Razorista

    Razorista Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Germany
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    @djcheburashka
    Don't know to be honest, as I am not really talking to you or anyone exclusively :blinking:.
    Until you do not get something completely wrong anymore? :wink:
    Or until you stop writing the same things you call me incompetent for a few posts later with different wording?

    Who is getting payed to use the SMS100?
    Even Edd Sorensen is only selling them himself, as far as I have heard, as do many other shops - but I do not know really, so there is one perhaps...
    If Steve Martin was ever paid for using it that backfired seriously for Hollis after he trashed it on his site when switching to the Razor.
    Tom Steiner did not even have his own shop as far as I know, I would not know how someone could have payed him to use it.

    What about Rob Neto by the way, who is paying him for using half a dozen systems including the SMS-series?

    There are probably thousands of divers today who have developed into sidemount instructors and incredible technical divers using an SMS100. I really hated it myself on my first sidemount tryout dive, but I would not have tried it at all if it wasn't as famous as it is.
     
  6. shoredivr

    shoredivr Solo Diver

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Ontario
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    Well, Rob Neto is here on SB, so you could ask him directly.

    Really, so what if people are sponsored, or not sponsored? Any dive shop has some kind of relationship with the companies they are representing.

    *This thread is much more interesting when discussing the geometry of tank trim*
     
  7. Razorista

    Razorista Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 1,000 - 2,499
    Location: Germany
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    @shoredivr
    It has turned to 'competence is determined by fame and reputation' and 'system quality is determined by types of dives reportedly done with the system' (in contrast to 'possible' - ridiculing any new system development) a long time ago.
    Obviously that has nothing to do with the original topic and someone is continuously trying to hijack the thread to a new topic.

    There is another current thread about cylinder trim.
    This thread was 'Razor 2.0 or 2.1 or SMS75' originally and that was answered on the first page - could probably have used some competent additions but turned into something different.
     
  8. djcheburashka

    djcheburashka Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: San Francisco, CA
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    Shoredivr: agreed on tank trim. I'm not sure what we can add now though until someone produces more data. I also suggest we start a new thread.

    As for sponsorship-the proposition was that lots of people are choosing the sms100 for serious cave exploration. If the truth is that one group is doing so because they have a financial interest in the manufacturer, that pretty much negates the original proposition :)
     
  9. victorzamora

    victorzamora Solo Diver

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    The people I was referring to were not sponsored by Hollis. In fact, many of the Hollis sponsored divers to little or no serious diving. Edd sells Hollis gear, sure. He also sells every other major brands.

    The guys doing big pushes in a razor? Sell and teach razors exclusively. Same with the stealth. Does that invalidate anything good about those systems? Certainly not.

    You're grasping at straws attacking a system you don't own, understand, or have any experience with out of simple ignorance (lack of knowledge). When one argument folds, you move to the next. You're currently falling into the "no true Scotsman" fallacy.
     
  10. djcheburashka

    djcheburashka Manta Ray

    # of Dives: 200 - 499
    Location: San Francisco, CA
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    No, I was just addressing an argument you had made, that lots of people use the SMS in cave country for serious diving. I think that argument is pretty dead. It doesn't say "yes" or "no" for either system, it's just one argument about one system.
     

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